New (to me) Rifle 1st sight in...not so good

[SHIPCHIEF]

I aquired an unfired New Englander 54 QLA barrel, and a nearly unused New Englander 12 ga. shotgun, complete. The 54 barrel fits, making a nice combination gun.
I took the 54 rifle combination to the range today to sight it in. It has adjustable T/C rear sight and the T/C front bead.
I fired low charges behind Lee 540-415M mini bullets. Bullets were hand wiped with bore butter before loading, they seemed to engrave the rifling with a mild rap on the bullet starter.
At the 50 yard line, I adjusted the sight, bringing in the hits from the left on the first target, but the results weren't good, but I switched from Goex ffg to 777 ffg when I discovered that I forgot my bore brush. Barrel fouling stabilized between shots, remaining good enough to permit loading whith out forcing the ramrod. I shot 14 rounds total.
The second target was fired with 40 gr 777 ffg. it measured 3" with 4 shots, which seemed an improvment.
The third was fired with 60 gr 777 ffg, and the 3 that hit the target grouped 11 inches with one off the frame.
What gives?
I used these in my White Mountain carbine with 80 Gr Goex ffg and heavier charges too with better consistancy at 100 yards...
Am I using too low of a charge? If so, why did I get a group with even lower 40 gr.
Frustrated :banghead:

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Stick to the Goex BP ffg about 60gr or more is a good place for your .54 NE'der... or load the 777 and do not compress the ffg 777. It don't like bein' compressed... BP works best to me at least jus' bring a liquid patch lube like Mooses Milk and pilllow tickin' for round ball or just lude the lube rings on them minnie balls.... swab every five shots if need be.
The rifled barrel may not be minnie ball frendly and like the round ball best(minnies like a longer twist like an Enfield, Zouave, Springfield)

 

[scrat]

Agree. remember when sighting in a muzzleloader. they do not necessarily like light charges. you almost start at 60 grains and go down. Swabing the barrel is important. Try round balls. and pillow tickin

 

[Smokin_Gun]

ffg 777 is 15% hotter by volume than Goex or BP. So 60gr of ffg Goex = 51gr of 777 ffg.
You are doin' it right ya jus' gotta hunt for the sweetspot or the load that's most accurate for you...and shoot alot 50-100 each time out and i bet ya that target group shrinks to 3" @100yards.

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

Yes;
I usually bring a bore brush and cleaning jag, somehow I forgot, so I switched to 777 hoping it would clean out the BP fouling so I could continue. It actually kinda' worked. At least it was possible to continue loading and firing without a stuck bullet.
I was at a gun club. Working with the schedule of cartridge shooters, it takes a while. I don't get that many total shots in per session. It's getting dark earlier too.
I brought 2 rifles and 2 revolvers, what ever was I thinking?
Next trip to the range, I'll bring the proper tools, plus some 530 round balls, T/C maxi balls and some lead Power Belts I have. I'll start with a larger charge like you guys suggest. Hopefully I'll find something that will group well.
Next time will be better.

 

[BHP FAN]

Yer on the right track,Chief.Too many guns.The more time you can devote to each firearm,the more accurate you'll be with that firearm.Thus,guns [x4] = 1/4 the accuracy you can reasonably expect to wring from each gun.Simple math...

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

BHP;
Your right of course.
I was watching 'The Outlaw Josey Wales' and got carried away.
One gun at a time.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

LoL!

 

[BHP FAN]

Chief said:
''I was watching 'The Outlaw Josey Wales' and got carried away.
One gun at a time...''

Best... Movie.. Ever!
My favorite runner up,[maybe even tied!] ''Ride With The Devil''...

 

[Shultzhaus]

Quigly Down Under - another good movie. But - I could never afford the $1800 for the Pedersoli Sharps.

 

[Voodoochile]

Quigly Down Under - another good movie. But - I could never afford the $1800 for the Pedersoli Sharps.

You & me both brother.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Your first problem is the TC QLA, the second is that it is a TC. TC may make a nice finish looking gun, but their rifling is nearly worthless and their sights are nearly impossible to keep a consistent string of shots going.

Yeah some guy may get ragged one hole three shot groups at 50 or 75 yds. The real proof is not in some little flukey group. Shoot ten shots at 100 and lets see what happens.

If you want accuracy in a TC, get a drop in barrel from another company and go to round balls.

 

[BHP FAN]

I don't know about now,but back when the TC's came out in the 70's,they were the one to beat.Zimmer's right about the round balls,though.The minies are pretty famous for tumbleing expecially with light charges.Get some round ball,and those patterns will become groups.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Match the projectile to the twist and match the powder load to caliber and projectile weight. As far as shooting several guns at one outing, I take notes for each gun I own.

 

[BHP FAN]

Good advice.

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

I thought T/C adopted the QLA muzzle because Green Mountain incorporates them in the drop in barrels for T/C and clones.
My Renegade 54 has a 33" Green mountain barrel with it. Kinda heavy for an all day hunt in hilly, brushy country tho-.
The counterbored muzzle does make loading the slug easier, and aligns it to the bore reliably. I'm not seeing a down side to the muzzle.
Today it's raining, so I didn't go shooting. I'm thinking over the next step.
I know I need to lay out my shooting gear and get a plan going. Yesterday, I just grabbed the whole shooting box and went to the range, thinking I would have everything I needed. That was close, but I really didn't have time to rummage around in the box in my car getting widgets when shooting time was passing.:banghead:

 

[BHP FAN]

Heh heh.Yeah,I have two chests of shooting gear,and a back pack.I wondr how Davy Crockett ever fit all that crud into one pouch?

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

That's the crux of the biscuit isn't it?
It's nice to have all the 'right stuff', but you can't take it with you when you go, and I'm not talkin' about dyin' just yet.

 

[mykeal]

Not that it's worth anything in the overall scheme of things, but I completely and utterly disagree with zimmerstutzen's characterization of the T/C barrels, and even more so with his cavalier dismissal of the three shot group as an indicator of accuracy.

I own several percussion and flint sidelock long rifles, from .36 to .58 and in barrel lengths from 22 to 44 inches. Six of them are Thompson Center rifles; 4 Hawkens, 1 New Englander and 1 White Mountain Carbine. While they are not the 'best' nor 'most accurate' rifles I own, my experience with them is completely different from zimmerstutzen's commentary. Now, it is true that none have the QLA crown, so I admit I can't say if that's a benefit or a problem, but all the guns I have are able to shoot better than I can. And as far as the three shot group, I can shoot three shot groups all day long that will add up to six, then nine, then twelve, fifteen, etc.if I choose to not change the target or POA. At 100 yards or 50 yards, it doesn't matter other than the group size changin a bit.

First, I'll echo the comment about three guns - one really needs to concentrate on one gun until the gun's favorite load (powder type, granulation, brand, load, patch thickness, lube material and projectile type and weight) are established.

Second, 777 is sensitive to compression. If you're inconsistent with compression amounts from shot to shot (usually due to fouling right near the breech, so you might not notice it) the results will be inconsistent as well. A good practice to follow with 777 is to continue to swab between shots to stabilize the barrel conditions, even though 777 fouling is not binding up the ball loading. It just makes things more consistent, even though it's not needed for keeping the fouling down.

Finally, all your barrels are 1:48" ROT, so shooting both round balls and conicals should be possible. It's a matter of finding the right load for each projectile. The conicals will do better with the heavier loads, while the round balls will prefer lighter loads. 40 gr of 777 (46 gr real black) is too low for any range beyond about 25 yards in a .54 however, regardless of projectile. Stay above 60 gr 777 (70 gr real black), especially with conicals.

 

[Underclocked]

That mini you were shooting is a hollow based bullet, isn't it. One thing you might try that could help is to pack that hollow base with some of that bore butter. Make sure the mini is cast from the purest lead you can find as well.

T7 fouling can be rock hard, so swabbing after each shot is a real good idea - one lightly damped patch with alcohol or Windex follow by both sides of a dry patch. Make sure you are seating to the same depth by making a witness mark on your ramrod and try to hit that mark each time.

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

Today I went back to the range with the .54 New Englander.
I should have read these posts before I went, but here goes.
I shot 3 targets. I dry brushed the bore every two to three shots. All bullets were lubed with bore butter.
The first was with 430 gr T/C Maxi-Balls, 50 gr ffg 777, and CCI #11 Magnum caps. The group was bad, over a foot at 50 yards with ragged holes, so I'm thinking key hole. Also the #11 Magnum caps were troublesome with hang fires and getting stuck in the hammer face. That used the last if my Maxi-balls.
The second target switched to Lee 415 gr hollow based mini's with 50 gr ffg 777 and CCI #10 caps which fit tighter, and seemed to seat the nipple, but they mis-fired sometimes, requiring a second blow to set off. One was unable to set off the charge, but a second cap did. That group was 7" with a flyer making it 10.5".
The third target was 3" using Lee 415 gr mini, 50 gr ffg 777 and RSW 1075 caps. No mis- or hang fires.
Caps are turning out to be an important item here. I still have Remington caps to try.
I also have to try my Powerbelt, Great Plains, and Ballet slugs and Hornady swaged round balls. I don't have REALs in this caliber yet.
I have 5 sizes CVA powder bushings for my measures. I tried the 50 gr all day today, 70 gr is for next time.
I know my eyesight isn't as good as it was, but I should be getting 1" groups @ 50 yds, the sights aren't 'that' fuzzy.

 

[[email protected]]

Well. If you used a .535 round ball, .020 thick patching, 100 grs Goex FF,
you very probably would be getting close to your 1 inch groups at 50 yds.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

I agree with Kwhi use a round ball with pillow tickin' you can buy at Walmart ... get a yard wash and dry it. Rip off a 3-4 stripe strip a tickin' and cut as ya go.
Concistancy of loading and being being aware of how many shot before fouling changes thing is most important. It also helps if you're a good shot.
I bench zero at 25 yards then at 100 yards once I know where my sites are. When a bullet passes thru a target at 25yd on the up arc I have found the sites to be set also for 100 yd on the down arc of the ball's path. Maybe this is only unique to me but it works on everthing I've zero'd.
I get cloverleaves at 100 yd with my Tennesee Poorboy .50 ... otherwise known as a jagged hole 3 shots one hole :O)

 

[BHP FAN]

Try round ball and 60gr.for .50,and 70 for .54 of 2f Goex. My dad had very,very good results with both his TC .50 Hawken,and his .54 Renegade using this combo,I won a rifle using his rifle and this load.The same rifle would give one FOOT patterns [not groups,you couldn't call 'em that] at fifty yards using minies or slugs. The only exception was REAL,which would group in about a six inch circle,about six inches low.

 

[SHIPCHIEF]

Now we're talkin'. I've got that stuff.