New to reloading-concerns about charge weight

[bassmickster]

Just how strictly should one follow the specs in the manual? I'm being very careful, but I'm getting inconsistent weights in my finished ammo. How much can you vary from specs and still be safe? I'm reloading my first 100 rounds (ever) of .40 cal with new RCBS turret press with Uniflow powder measure. I've been checking that it's throwing the correct charge weight every 10 throws. Dead on, using the RCBS 5-0-5 mechanical scale. Using the 49th Lyman manual, I'm carefully following the specs for 155 grain bullets (optimum powder: Power Pistol / suggested starting charge 7 grains / max charge 7.8). I tried the 7.0 grain charge at the range with about 20 rounds. Lots of fun, no problem cycling and ejecting. Today I decided to make up some more 7.0 rounds and some others with 7.5 grains as an experiment to see how it performed in my Beretta PX-4 Storm. Except, I mixed the two loading blocks up, and couldn't recall which was which. No big deal, just weigh the finished rounds to see which ones were .5 grains heavier, right? Nope! In averaging the weights of four randomly chosen rounds from each block I learned that they're the same weight! (232.9 grains). I checked the individual weights of the bullets and the empty primed cases; that all checks out. So then I compared weights of finished rounds between the two blocks A:B no averaging this time. I get varying results one is 1.6 grains heavier than the other, then the next comparison I get 1.9 grains lighter. Weird. Considering the specs warn not to go heavier than .8 grains over the starting charge, it seems dangerous to fire these rounds. Am I being too fussy, or this a real problem? Sorry for the long post.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Count yourself lucky

Just how strictly should one follow the specs in the manual?

Very carefully. The .40 caliber is a moderately high pressure cartridge. Don't make big jumps in charge.

No big deal, just weigh the finished rounds to see which ones were .5 grains heavier, right? Nope!

You found out that weight variations in bullets and in brass completely overshadow the weight variations in the powder charge.

There are two solutions to consider.

Weigh all the rounds and average the two sets. The variations in bullet and brass weights may average out and let you see in which batch the extra half-grain of powder is.

Pull a couple of bullets from each batch, being careful to preserve the powder from the cases. Weigh the preserved powder to determine which batch has the heavier charge.

Am I being too fussy, or this a real problem? Sorry for the long post.

It is hard to be too fussy when dealing with things that go BOOM.

Count yourself lucky that your first loading mishap is still within specs and you are not having to pull 200 finished rounds, or worse, having to pick up the pieces of your gun, or your hand. I would shoot them, as they are still .3 grains below max.

Take the lessons of today and use them to make a better tomorrow.

Good luck. Be safe. Always, all ways.

Lost Sheep

 

[bassmickster]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll try what you suggest. Better safe than sorry. I'm glad I picked up the bullet puller.

 

[gamestalker]

I did the same thing many years ago and thought the solution was, as well, to just weight all the rounds and separate accordingly. But I discovered that all thing being equal, are in fact not. The bullets and brass are incredibly inconsistent in weight. The only exception I've found is with the super expensive brass and bullets such as Norma brass, or Berger match grade bullets, just to name a couple.

 

[LiveLife]

How much can you vary from specs and still be safe?

Despite the best effort we put into making our reloads, there are inherent accuracy variations in our reloading equipment that could have a cumulative effect (i.e. slightly heavier powder charge, slightly shorter OAL, slightly heavier bullet, etc.).

I tend to stick to mid-high range load data to give me some "buffer head room" so if there is some cumulative increase that results in higher chamber pressure, I have some insurance. If I am near max or max, I don't. Unless you have chamber pressure measuring device equipped barrel, you'll never know how spikey your peak pressure really got.

Usually, if I have to question/wonder/ponder whether it's safe to shoot some particular rounds, I lean on the side of safety and pull them. This way, I never have to find out what went wrong.

 

[Hondo 60]

As Lost Sheep said, you're still under max by .3 gr. So it's safe to fire all of them.

But you won't know which one gave better or worse accuracy.

Chalk it up as a lesson learned & promise yourself you'll do better next time.

Stay safe my friends!

 

[LiveLife]

As Lost Sheep said, you're still under max by .3 gr. So it's safe to fire all of them.

I misread the OP. +1. Since you are under .3 gr, you got some buffer room and should be OK.

 

[Sunray]

Paragraphs will make your post easier to read.
"...how strictly should one follow the specs in the manual..." Religiously.
"...get varying results..." The brass can do that. The bullets may not be exact either.
"...starting charge 7 grains/max charge 7.8..." Alliant gives 9 grains as max for a 155 jacketed. 7.8 for a 165. Both with a 4" barrel.
It's not unusual for the manufacturer to give one max load and a manual another. Load data reflects the conditions on the day of the test.

 

[BigN]

Don't try to second guess the manuals. Even with that, check for pressure problems along the way. I never have trusted auto powder equipment. I weigh out each powder application on a digital scale. Sure it slows things down a bit but in the end, I don't have to worry about any problems. Gives peace of mind. Be careful, pay attention, write it down so you don't forget, and always try to err on the safe (and slow) side. Good luck!

 

[Steve C]

It is important to maintain your powder charge weight below the maximum level in the manual and it sounds like you are doing due diligence in using proper QA control of your powder charges by sampling and visual comparison. Its generally assumed that you will maintain powder throws to a .1 grain +/= variation. With a visual comparison of the charge levels in the loading block I can usually detect any case that has more or less than .1gr of powder than its fellows.

As ;mentioned weighting loaded rounds will generally show greater variation that comes from differences in bullet and case weight, not necessarily from powder charge weight. A .5 grain variation in bullet and case weight is a proportionally much smaller percentage of the total weight of bullet and case vrs a .1grain variation in 7 grains of powder.

If you are confident in your quality control in powder dispensing then there should be no worry about the safety of the ammo.

 

[thump_rrr]

I'm a little overzealous at times so all my brass is sorted by headstamp and batch processed.
It doesn't mean that it will all weigh the same but it's a lot closer than mixed headstamp.

When I have some time to kill I also weigh my bullets and sort them to the nearest grain. At first I was being rediculous trying to sort them to the nearest 1/10th of a grain but as you can imagine it's a little impractical when you have 5000 bullets to do.

When I received my progressive press one month ago there were times when too much was going on at the same time and I was unsure if I checked the powder charge before seating the bullet. I store them in 50 round MTM caseguards so I would weigh each cartridge individually and would take the 2 heaviest and 2 lightest cartridges and pull the bullet and weigh the charges.
By doing that I found 2 squib loads out of the 500 rounds I produced.

I'm still waiting for my RCBS Lock Out die to arrive.

 

[357Shooter]

Weight on a finished round is useless, bullet and case weights vary ALOT. I have written to Hornady and it's impossible to manufacture bullets to the Hundredth or even Tenth of a grain unless you would want to pay about a buck apiece for them. Make sure to check the powder weight ALONE for safety.

 

[Walkalong]

Weight on a finished round is useless, bullet and case weights vary ALOT ..................................... Make sure to check the powder weight ALONE for safety.

Exactly.

 

[bassmickster]

Thank you for your many and experienced responses. I believe the loading is as much fun as the shooting, so slowing down to be super methodical is a great way to spend more time on the reloading bench. This is a terrific forum.

 

[GLOOB]

Hehe. I remember one time early one, I got into a similar pickle because I was being too methodical.

My OCD had compelled me to sort all my brass by headstamp. And to count out the exact number of shells on my loading block. And to count out and set aside the exact number of bullets.

So, I accidentally knocked over one of the last few shells. No problem. I dumped it out and put it back in the bin. Then I proceeded to seat the rest of the tray. The problem arose when I finished the last shell... with the last bullet. Now, I "knew" full well I had dumped the partially spilled case and put it back with the other empties. But since I ran out of bullets, I decided to start weighing the entire batch to make sure I didn't load a squib. Of course, I learned the same thing you did, today. I had even started pulling them to weigh out the charges - I had been putting this particular batch in a tray as I went, so I figured I'd find it just a few cartridges in. Nope. They all weighed the same. While contemplating pulling the entire batch, I spied a bullet lying on the floor and stopped the madness.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Mickster -
Welcome to THR and Reloading !

Just how strictly should one follow the specs in the manual?

Ah, common beginner concern. As closely as your equipment will allow. Your results will almost always vary from published because there is always a difference in the 2 guns. Therefore, always begin with the "starting load" and work up slowly. For pistol, usually in 0.2gr increments. BTW their gun looks something like this....

...now you start to understand where some of the "minor" differences can creep in.

I'm being very careful........ Except, I mixed the two loading blocks up, and couldn't recall which was which.

One of those 2 statements is not true. One of those statements can get you very hurt. Let me encourage you in the strongest manner possible to go back and re-assess your loading process. Refine your process to the simplest possible steps. Such as: Load one recipe, put all that ammo in a box or bag, and then mark the container with all the load data. Finally, put that container away.

THEN start the second recipe.


Enjoying this hobby is that simple.

 

[blarby]

"Weight on a finished round is useless, bullet and case weights vary ALOT ..................................... Make sure to check the powder weight ALONE for safety.

Exactly."


Not entirely true.

Being one of those OCD reloaders, weight of a finished round does have substantive value.

I weigh my bullets first, as some have also mentioned they do.

I weigh my brass as well.

I find bizarre variances in both- but I notice them before the charge is applied.

If you have the similar OCD reloading technique, knowing the weight of your brass and pairing it with equally sorted bullets you will have a very clear picture of what your finished weight should be once you add your powder charge.

If you are loading mid-range loads where .2 this or .2 that aren't as critical, simply forming 1 grain weight categories for your bullets and brass, then charging them, would give you a very positive way to final weigh rounds and know immediately if something is amiss. .2 gr difference ? sure. 3gr difference? Suspect.

The latter is how I personally handle most of my loads.

Is this practical for loading 5000 rds in an afternoon ? ...probably not.

However, loading a few hundred rounds an evening using this method is not that far fetched, and I have done it.

If you need to load in excess of that on a regular basis, I might suggest some spendy reloading equipment.

There are lots of fail-safes to be had in those pieces of equipment, and their price-tags are a good indicator of that.

If you are loading that volume of rounds, the cost of your equipment would be the least of my concerns- $ went out the window when you started shooting 2500 rounds a week, even reloading. It would be a safety factor....I'd spend two hundred extra dollars to assure my safety at that level of production.

Our ( and now your) chosen hobby is a very rewarding one, that can be accomplished either as safely or as sloppily as you choose.

I'm glad that you are erring on the side of caution.

As has already been stated : work your process. Consistency will be one of your biggest factors in safety, and deviation from it one of your biggest safety issues in the long run.

Oh, and making multiple loads on one bench at a time....thats asking for a problem

 

[twofifty]

Suggest the OP look for a better less mixup prone way of using his reloading blocks. Perhaps having one on either side of the powder station, and when seating bullets, shifting them to either side of the press.

Measuring 'everything' is a great way to learn about manufacturing tolerances and the resulting variations in component weight. Figuring out which measurements are critical to what you want to achieve is the next step. For instance, now you know that bullets don't necessarily weigh exactly what's on the box, and that this doesn't much matter in the real world. Stay alert though, because sometimes a wrong bullet ends up in the right box.

Accepting that the ammo you make will vary in COL by +/- so many thou and still be safe and accurate is both reassuring and a time saver. However, knowing that these variations can stack to push max/hot ammo over the top is critical.

Finally, measurements mean nothing without a consistent measuring technique. Keeping organized notes and labeling containers comes in real handy too.

Edit: OP: for fun and more learning, suggest you caliper various dimensions of cases (COL length, case length, neck outside diameter, base diameter at the web, base to ogive if rifle case). Do this for a loaded case, then shoot it and measure again. Then size it and measure again. Then load it and measure. With bottleneck rifle cartridges, the changes provide a good learning experience of how much movement brass goes through per reloading cycle.

 

[dmickey]

Exactly what is referred to as "OCD?"

 

[54lariat]

Your not shooting a Hi-Point are u??
LOL

A hungry 226 will eat em

Lesson learned


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

 

[Lost Sheep]

Comments on other posts

While contemplating pulling the entire batch, I spied a bullet lying on the floor and stopped the madness.

How satisfying was it when you found the bullet?

My work involves crunching a lot of numbers and when I find an anomaly, I go crazy until I find the source. I feel like I won a lottery when that happens.

Suggest the OP look for a better less mixup prone way of using his reloading blocks. Perhaps having one on either side of the powder station, and when seating bullets, shifting them to either side of the press.

From my reading of the OP, I concluded that it was more of a labeling issue than handling. The bullets aren't mixed up between the two blocks. Just the two entire blocks are (maybe) switched.

Handle charge weight changes the same way you would handle powder type changes. Close out one batch, package, label and put it where it belongs before starting the next batch.

Lost Sheep

 

[Lost Sheep]

OCD

Exactly what is referred to as "OCD?"

OCD: Obsessive-compulsive disorder is an anxiety disorder in which people have unwanted and repeated thoughts, feelings, ideas, sensations (obsessions), or behaviors that make them feel driven to do something (compulsions). (from National Institutes of Health website). Google is your friend.

As it is used here, it means being driven to keep track of EVERYTHING in DETAIL.

See the recent television series "Monk" for a humorous example of a high-functioning OCD sufferer. Only moderately accurate, medically, but entertaining. One illustrative scene has Mr. Monk (a consulting detective for the San Francisco Police Dept) being chased by some bad guys, but still having to touch each parking meter he passes. When he misses one, he goes back for it.

Do I have OCD with regard to definitions? Nah.

Maybe.

Lost Sheep

 

[918v]

Cases vary in weight by as much as 10 grains. Bullets vary in weight by as much as five. You weighing live rounds to see which ones have half a grain less powder ain't gonna work.

 

[Walkalong]

Weight on a finished round is useless, bullet and case weights vary ALOT ..................................... Make sure to check the powder weight ALONE for safety.

Exactly.

Not entirely true.

Exactly right as intended. You cannot weigh finished rounds to find high or low charge weights.

Now, as you posted, sometimes, in certain applications, much can be gained by segregating brass by weight (before loading), and segregating bullets by weight (again, before loading), as well as using a quality measure or weighing charges carefully. This wasn't that question. This question was about weighing loaded rounds to see if some had .5 grs more powder in them, and as you noted, there is too much difference in weights of bullets and brass to do so reliably.

Cases vary in weight by as much as 10 grains. Bullets vary in weight by as much as five. You weighing live rounds to see which ones have half a grain less powder ain't gonna work.

Exactly.

 

[twofifty]

I wonder if most reloaders start out obsessing about every single dimension and detail. Then we eventually figure out what's important and what's not, put OCD habits aside and settle into safe yet productive reloading sessions.