New to reloading

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Jungo2

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Greetings to everyone,

Due to the rising cost of ammo, I'm seriously considering a reloader. After doing some research, I have a Hornady LNL reloader in mind. However, upon sourcing powders, brass, primers and bullets, I'm finding that it's far cheaper to simply purchase a case of CCI Blazer Brass (9mm) and have at it. I'm sourcing the cheapest bulk quantity components that I can find. Based on the component prices I've been seeing, there's virtually no savings; quite to the contrary, it's actually more expensive to reload. Am I missing something here?

Regards.
 
Probably the primary issue you are missing is the comparison you are doing: The ammo you produce in handloading is a round tailored to your particular firearm, with selected components, not the mass-produced product most factory ammo is.

Second, you may not be factoring in the amortized cost of cases--if you can use a case ten times, its cost will be one cent, not ten cents.

9mm is notably difficult to get a good return on; it's widely available and mass-produced; if cost is your only issue, then buy the volume Eastern European stuff and have at it.

However, calculations I just did suggest I can load 9mm for about $5.50 a box--that's using lead bullets from a reputable, cheaper supplier, but paying the current rate for primers, powder, and some once-fired brass (and amortizing its use).

Can you still buy CCI 9mm Blazer for $110.00 in case lots?

Jim H.
 
yep!!
if just 9 mil for blammin ammo its cheaper to get the blazer but for 357 &44mag & too many to mention it`ll pay for it`self in short order!!


GP100man
 
9mm Reloading - Still a Bargain

While 9mm is harder to make a good return on, after about 5000 rounds you should be able to pay for your initial investment in reloading equipment (which you can also use to reload other calibers).

Right now, I reload for about .12 cents/round (124 gr Rainiers or Montana Gold JPHs w/Vihtavuori N320 powder) with a Lee Classic Turret Press (c. 200 rounds/hour). The ammo I make is also of a much higher quality than the cheapest stuff (Wolf) I can buy at .17/round delivered. (You're not going to find Blazer Brass for less than .20/round delivered - and probably more like .22) By reloading, I can develop a much better load and overall higher quality cartridge designed just for my gun (CZ 75B) than I ever could buying the cheapest (dirtiest and smelliest) stuff on the market.

Try Powder Valley for components. Even with the Hazmat fee they are reasonable ($20 + $10 shipping). Get 5000 small pistol primers ($110), 4 lbs of Powder (VV N320 is a very high quality pistol powder, about $78 for 4lbs, and enough to reload 6000+ rounds; you can get much cheaper stuff, too - still better than whatever it is that they put in Wolf!). Use brass you find on the range or you've shot yourself. And buy a case on Montana Gold bullets (3750-4000 rounds), about 7.5 cents a round shipped.

Bullet: .075
Powder: .013
Primer: .025
Brass: Free or .03/round once fired (good for 5-10 reloads)

You should save $50/1000 at least over Wolf, $75/1000 over Blazer Brass. By 5000 rounds and you'll have saved almost enough to cover your reloading equipment. And, finally, it can be a lot of fun to reload your own ammunition. I find it relaxing, too. Get yourself a chronograph and you'll have even more fun.

Anyway, good luck whatever you decide to do. I went through this six months ago. I started with absolutely zero knowledge, but with the help of the good people in this community and some friends from the range, have become a fairly proficient reloader. I'm now reloading 9mm, .223, and .308 - and, finally, am saving LOTS of money. And I've got a fun new hobby to boot.
 
GP and Bear,

Thanks so much for the responses.

GP, you make an excellent point regarding the amortization of the brass; something I did not consider. Bottom line is that I'm interested in shooting 9mm (at least for now) as cheaply as possible. The Wolf stuff is filthy and I won't use it. CCI Blazer and Remington PMC works pretty well for me. My observations are based upon a case purchase of 9mm PMC in January at Dick's Sporting Goods in Delaware. $159.80 out the door. A lot has changed in 2 months. :-(


Bear, thank you for the number crunching. This is the exact information that I was hoping for....much more encouraging.

Regarding a reloader, I'm pretty sold on the Lock-n-Load. Great features and the free bullet offer (1000) makes it a no brainer. I'm considering purchasing the package deal with the case feeder:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/t...=froogle&cm_pla=0370101&cm_ite=0031363215842a

It's more costly, but I like fast and easy. If I wasn't married and 20 years younger, that would mean something completely different. Any recommendations for additional equipment? I suppose that I will need a scale, tumbler/media, dies, etc.

Thanks again, guys.

BTW, disregard the frown icon. I don't know why it's there or how to remove it.
 
For most folks it's not cheaper just lots more shooting. You can reload for your firearm and make a higher quality round compared to cheap factory ammo. You should be able to reload a good JHP for what you will pay for a general round nose or flat point round.
 
Jungo,
You may want to consider starting with something a little less pricey and easier to use to make sure that you enjoy reloading. For under $200.00 you can get yourself a very user friendly and decent Lee Classic Turret kit with dies along with a few other things such as tumbler and bullet puller that will load 180-200 rounds per hour. Use it for a few months and then sell it to get a nicer set-up.

Just a thought. Good luck whatever you decide.
 
It probably is important to say that the Lock and Load is on backorder everywhere, I think--and that most projections are that it will be back in stock by June.

Cabela's reports they will have it in three-four weeks--so place the order now, and hope they haven't been BS'd by Hornady.

Meanwhile, see the sticky link about what other items to buy.

Jim H.
 
I'm not sure where you are looking at bulk components but if you can't save money over factory then you are looking at the wrong place. I just bought 35,000 primers yesterday at Graf's and they will cost me around $18 per thousand after hazmat and shipping. They are not all mine, I buy bulk with some friends and we split it up. I buy powder at Graf's and Powder Valley and after hazmat and shipping it ends up being around $12 per pound. One pound of Titegroup will make around 1,700 rounds. I have been buying Zero FMJ's at PV for $64 per thousand. I can load 1,000 rounds of 9mm for around $90. I have found Graf's and PV to be the best places for powder and primers, for bullets I search the web for deals. Hope this helps.
Rusty
 
Let's face it -- handloading is not for everybody. For most of us, handloading adds a great deal to the pleasure of our shooting, plus the fact that we know we can load better rounds than the factories can when they turn out thousands of rounds an hour. Go to a benchrest match some time and see how many are shooting factory rounds -- no factory round will even chamber in the tight benchrest chambers.
 
Buying in bulk is key for 9mm savings but in the end I appreciate the quality of the rounds I produce over anything else.
 
Thanks to everyone for the input. This is interesting - although reloading 9mm does not seem to offer the degree of savings as some of the larger and less mainstream calibers, many of you feel that this is offset by the improved quality and performance of the reloaded ammo as opposed to factory rounds. Again, this is something that I never would have considered.

Over the last few years, most of the ammo that I have fired has been Blazer, PMC or whatever European surplus stuff was on special at the time. Consequently, my appreciation for high quality ammo is somewhat blunted (the cheap stuff always made me smile). Can I expect a significant difference from a higher quality reload? At typical handgun ranges, is there really a noticeable improvement in accuracy?

Thanks again.
 
So, what 9mm pistol do you have?

That general factor will have as much to do with increased accuracy from a custom-tailored handload as the "right combination of ingredients with the correct assembly parameters".

A second factor is how you intend to shoot--if this is self-defense practice to get good at 5 yards, how important is the increased accuracy of the reload? The basic question here comes back to whether or not you'll enjoy the reloading experience.

It isn't for everybody, and if the driving factor will be economics for you, then it probably isn't worth it on that alone. If saving $20.00 an hour (a nominal value for reloading 200 rounds per hour of 9mm on a cheaper turret press, like the Lee classic cast), then maybe it can keep you motivated.

Jim H.
 
I think another reason for me to reload is I like to shoot IDPA, GSSF and some fun matches at the club I belong to. Besides my reloads being accurate I can also build them to have less recoil and can stay on target a lot easier so I am ending up with quicker times. Even with the light load I have never had a problem dropping steel.
Rusty
 
JFH,
I have quite a few 9mm pistols. Sig 226, Sig SP2022, HK P2000, HK P2000SK, HK P7M8. I'm considering using the 226 for my first attempt at USPSA competition next month (Production). Some reloading might be tasked for competiton, but most of my shooting is just general hole punching at typical distances. I'm not concerned with defensive loads.

Thanks
 
Well, you certainly have the right pistols to try to build good reloads. I don't reload for 9mm any more; I gave up on the caliber. But, Bear2000 certainly gives you insight into the components to probably get, and RustyFN has fed you the sourcing--FWIW, I too buy most of my components from Graf & Sons.

That just leaves the hardware selection. I won't quibble about your press selection--I happen to own Lee gear, but were I to upgrade my progressive I would probably head to a lock and load. IOW, you've selected a good press, it just isn't available right now.

I do, however, question the wisdom of getting started on a progressive. It can be done, but there's A LOT going on at once--and the frustration level can be high.

Personally, I recommend that you start with a turret--and specifically, the Lee Classic Cast. It can function as both a SS press to learn single-step fundamentals, but with the advantage of auto indexing in a turret as well. Production is easily about 200-240 rounds per hour once you get things figured out, and meanwhile you can learn while you're waiting on the arrival of the LnL.

This thread and this one, too are good summaries of a comprehensive list.

Be sure to read not only the lists, but the comments about modifying them.

All the gear in these lists is usable with the LnL, save for the press itself and possibly the powder measure. Personally, this Classic Cast package is where I would start if I were starting over, and then I would add the LnL once I was really competent at understanding reloading.

Progressives are wonderful for churning out semiauto fodder--of whatever quality. However, they are NOT what one needs to sort out basic reloading skills--so consider getting a turret to begin with--at least while you're waiting.

Jim H.
 
Happy Easter to all.

JFH,
Thanks for the additional info. I've reviewed the thread links that you kindly provided in your last post. Very informative.

From an economical and practical standpoint, I can appreciate your recommendation for the entry level Lee Press. Although I admittedly have no practical experience, I've seen single-stage, progressive/manual, and progressive/auto-index presses in operation and the Hornady unit seems to be the slickest approach. To expand, I harbor no delusions about my motivation for reloading. I don’t expect it to be an enjoyable hobby. Quite simply, it is just a means to an end. I enjoy shooting. Reloading is primarily an economical motivation for me. That said, a reloading solution that is cheap, yet slow and cumbersome, will in my estimation be a painstaking chore to use…and I won’t use it. I know me, and my patience seems to erode with age. ;-) Upon viewing a LNL in operation – with and without the case feeder – I’m fairly convinced that this is the unit for me. Fast and easy, but more expensive. For me, fast and easy is worth the added expense because I’ll use it more and extract a modicum of enjoyment out of it as well. It will just take longer for the initial investment to equalize. I’m not particularly intimidated by the added complexity of a progressive loader. Again, after viewing these units in operation, the additional attention required for a progressive press can be addressed with diligence and strict adherence to procedure; compulsory guidelines for anyone that reloads.

I’m still a little way off from purchasing – there are no LNL’s in stock anyway – but thanks to the information and insights provided by the members of this board, my approach to reloading is becoming more focused.

Many thanks to everyone.
 
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I can make 9mm practice ammo for $3.50 per box of 50. Considering that the cheapest 9mm bulk ammo that I can find is around $9 per box of 50 that adds up to a significant savings- NOW. 6 months ago I didn't know about bulk mail order buying & economies of scale, and 9mm was a lot cheaper to just buy outright.

I use range (free) brass. I use Wolf primers and Titegroup powder from Powder Valley purchased in bulk. I am using 125-gr lead hard-cast projectiles purchased from a caster in bulk.
All of these items are available TODAY for the prices I based that cost upon. In actuality, I am spending $3.40 per box, however the bullets had a slight price increase due to shipping cost increasing slightly- this is my NEW cost as of 4/1/08 when I order again.

9mm Luger
125-gr RN, 4.4gr powder (1590/lb)
Projo: 4.2¢ Primer: 2.0¢ Powder: 0.8¢
Total Cost per round: 7.0¢
Total Cost per box/50: $3.50
 
There's a lot of ways to cook the books, so to speak, when reloading.

The most obvious is to buy in bulk. Buying primers 100 pieces at a time is not going to save you money. If you can swing it, look for the deals on 5k and 10k primers. CCI is usually the cheapest, but not always. Wolf primers actually have a good reputation too. Find a friend that reloads, hopefully in the same caliber and then split the cost.

Oh, and with the way component prices are rising, the 5,000 bullets I purchased last fall that made me cringe now make me smile.

Second, if you are reloading for economy only, look at charge weights. Is a 1/2" or 1" smaller group worth it if a case of 1,000 rounds is $20 less? That's up to you. While 1 grain of powder may not seem like much, consider it in the context of 5gr versus gr. That's a 20% reduction in powder. I'd love it if I could poay 20% less for all of my components. For 9mm, Titegroup will give you some of the lowest charge weights and it is more accurate than WWB and Blazer in my guns.

Consider the bullet. Do you need 147gr Hornady XTPs or will a 115gr Winchester FMJ work for punching holes in paper? Premium bullets (Gold Dot, Golden Saber, Silvertips, XTPs, etc) command a premium price.

If you're buying brass, buy quality. I've pretty much resolved not to buy commercial .223 brass anymore since it is too inconsistent and there's too much junk out there; LC and WCC from now on. Beware of mixed brass. I've had good and bad luck with mixed brass. One batch was mostly Speer, Winchester, Remington, and Federal. Another had almost 20% A-Merc (i.e., CRAP!) in it.

Beware of shipping and hazmat costs! For powder and primers, Midway is one of the worst places to buy from because of their handling fees and ridiculous shipping costs. Hazmat is $20 right off the bat, for 1#, 8#, or 16#. See if you can source powder and primers locally at the LGS or a gun show.
 
Evan,
Thanks for the info. I'm reluctant to use lead bullets. I have children, and the health risks combined with the additional fouling that accumulates in the pistols causes me concern; possibly undue concern. Your load, however is certainly cost-effective.

Strat,
Thanks for the recommendations. If I decide to do this, I will most certainly advantage the costs by purchasing in bulk. You mention quantities of 5,000, however I'm finding it difficult to locate vendors that sell beyond 2,000 pieces (primers, bullets).

Concerning bullets, I have no problem with 115gr FMJ as this is what I shoot 99% of the time. In fact, I'd would think that FMJ bullets would be preferred fodder for practice and competition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't imagine any advantage in either application for an expanding bullet.

Concerning brass, if I decide to obtain used brass from my local range, what should I be concerned with and what tools will I need to address any of those concerns?

Thanks again.
 
www.Grafs.com sells primers by the 5K and bullets by the 2K. Midway sells bullets by 2K, 3K, and 4K.

For practice, FMJ can't be beat for price. For competition, JHP and SWC are often used since they are often more accurate than FMJ. I also load some of the premium hollowpoints to test how well they feed in some of my pistols since I can't swing $20/20 for loaded ammo.

For brass scrounging, throw away "A-Merc" headstamp and anything steel or aluminum. Be wary of "odd" headstamps - they might be berdan primed. Berdan-primed cases are technically reloadable, but components are scarce and you need special tools. Get a tumbler to clean up some of the brass. When loading, always inspect your brass, especially range pickups since you do not know their history. Multiple extractor marks, severely bulged cases, cracked cases, blown primers, cratered primers, flattened primers, etc should all be chucked.

If I had to pick one headstamp to live with for the rest of my life, it'd be Winchester.
 
JUNGO2 - You've received lots of good advice, so I won't "advise", I'll just tell you what I do - YMMV.

I buy most of my powder and primers from Graf&Sons - http://www.grafs.com/. I don't use Powder Valley because I live in Kansas and have to add Kansas sales tax to the rest of the fees. There may be a better source than Graf, but I haven't found it yet. I prefer CCI and Winchester primers, Remington if I can't get them. I do NOT use Federal primers - too many reports of primer detonations for my comfort level.

For bullets, I frequently check Midway, Graf&Sons and Widener's - http://www.wideners.com/index.cfm. Midway occasionally has had a "blemished bullet" sale that has been pretty good.

For brass, which is the big cost in reloading, I use what we have already shot. I'm not a really big 9mm shooter, but my wife has a distinct preference for her Beretta Cougar and I understand the saying, "If momma ain't happy, nobody is happy." We currently have over 2,000 rounds of re-manufactured 9mm ammo from Collins Cartridge Company - http://www.cccammo.com/ and from Georgia Arms - http://www.georgia-arms.com/index.asp. (My preference is the Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" - it appears to be a little cleaner than the CCCo ammo.) Buying re-manufactured means you will get a mixture of brass and you won't know how many times it has been fired. However, since handgun brass can usually be reloaded ten or more times, I don't see that as much of a problem, and I inspect each case more than once during the reloading process.

I use a Lee Classic Turret press - I like it but I won't try to talk you out of your Hornady choice. (I do think classifying the Lee press as an "entry level" press is unkind.) My setup includes an RCBS Rangemaster 750 Electronic Powder Scale and a Lyman Turbo Twin Case Tumbler - I can recommend both.

Good luck with your reloading experience..........
 
jungo
press come ,presses go ,powder burns &i cant wait to open the next box of boolits i have put away but get a good set of scales ,take care of them & most of all use em!!
with all the progressives with rotors & bushings most dont throw what they advertise so double check & recheck the powder weight!

GP100man
 
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