New Trigger for Chief's Special .38
- Thread starter procarryusa
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I think your gunsmith is a perfect example of the kind I worry about, and that isn’t a complement.
Nobody can reduce the double-action trigger pull on a J-frame S&W to 8.5 pounds, and have it absolutely reliable under all conditions, and no one in their right mind would carry a revolver for defensive purposes that was any less then that. The main problem is a lack of mass in the small-sized hammer, combined with the fact that the hammer and trigger pivot pins (called “studs”) are close together so the trigger has minimum leverage to rotate the hammer backwards. Where the firing pin is located – in the frame or on the hammer – makes little difference. It is true that the new MIM hammers are lighter then earlier ones, and that does make a difference in theory. In practice, not so much so.
To get that lighter pull, he is either going to cut or replace the hammer and rebound slide (trigger return) springs – one or both. You can’t do that and maintain absolute reliability. If it were possible, Smith & Wesson would be doing it. You can reduce spring tensions a bit, but each reduction in poundage is matched with a reduction in reliable primer ignition. If you go too far a bit of additional cylinder end-shake may earn you a “click,” instead of a “bang!” especially if you happen to get a hard primer.
If I had doubts about your gunsmith before, I don’t now. He is handing you a complete line of pure “bovine droppings.”
Smith & Wesson hammers and triggers were made from a relatively soft steel (for shock resistance) and then case hardened (to leave a hard skin that was resistant to wear), and cutting through that thin surface would expose the softer metal under it. Obviously it would be foolish to polish a hammer or trigger to the point where the softer metal was exposed, but it only mattered on those places of the two parts where they rubbed together, especially under spring pressure.
The front of the trigger’s fingerpiece where the serrations are, rubs against nothing, except the user’s finger, and your finger isn’t hard enough to cause any wear.
Smith & Wesson triggers were never blued, they were color casehardened. On some stainless models they were flash chromed for cosmetic reasons only, so they would match the color (more or less) of stainless steel. Any difference in width, if there were any, would be minor. In fact many experienced double-action shooters prefer the narrow trigger with a more rounded/smooth face.
I strongly suggest that before you spend $100 and possibly get a ruined gun in return, you call Smith & Wesson’s customer service department and confirm which story is correct – what your gunsmith told you, or what I have posted here.
Do you really want to risk your wife's life and safety on a mistake?
Nobody can reduce the double-action trigger pull on a J-frame S&W to 8.5 pounds, and have it absolutely reliable under all conditions, and no one in their right mind would carry a revolver for defensive purposes that was any less then that. The main problem is a lack of mass in the small-sized hammer, combined with the fact that the hammer and trigger pivot pins (called “studs”) are close together so the trigger has minimum leverage to rotate the hammer backwards. Where the firing pin is located – in the frame or on the hammer – makes little difference. It is true that the new MIM hammers are lighter then earlier ones, and that does make a difference in theory. In practice, not so much so.
To get that lighter pull, he is either going to cut or replace the hammer and rebound slide (trigger return) springs – one or both. You can’t do that and maintain absolute reliability. If it were possible, Smith & Wesson would be doing it. You can reduce spring tensions a bit, but each reduction in poundage is matched with a reduction in reliable primer ignition. If you go too far a bit of additional cylinder end-shake may earn you a “click,” instead of a “bang!” especially if you happen to get a hard primer.
If I had doubts about your gunsmith before, I don’t now. He is handing you a complete line of pure “bovine droppings.”
Smith & Wesson hammers and triggers were made from a relatively soft steel (for shock resistance) and then case hardened (to leave a hard skin that was resistant to wear), and cutting through that thin surface would expose the softer metal under it. Obviously it would be foolish to polish a hammer or trigger to the point where the softer metal was exposed, but it only mattered on those places of the two parts where they rubbed together, especially under spring pressure.
The front of the trigger’s fingerpiece where the serrations are, rubs against nothing, except the user’s finger, and your finger isn’t hard enough to cause any wear.
Smith & Wesson triggers were never blued, they were color casehardened. On some stainless models they were flash chromed for cosmetic reasons only, so they would match the color (more or less) of stainless steel. Any difference in width, if there were any, would be minor. In fact many experienced double-action shooters prefer the narrow trigger with a more rounded/smooth face.
I strongly suggest that before you spend $100 and possibly get a ruined gun in return, you call Smith & Wesson’s customer service department and confirm which story is correct – what your gunsmith told you, or what I have posted here.
Do you really want to risk your wife's life and safety on a mistake?
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rmfnla
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procarryusa
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The gunsmith was going to replace rebound and hammer springs. I thought that replacing the springs was fairly standard procedure for lightening the trigger pull.
As for the motives of S&W, I think that they put in the heavy springs for liability reasons, not because they can't go lower. They want to make sure that they don't have any "accidental" shootings, so they make the double action pull so heavy that it takes a deliberate action to pull it back. A careful and well-trained user can safely use a lighter trigger pull.
I thought Jerry Miculek used a revolver with a 7 1/2 lb. pull. Perhaps I'm getting faulty info somewhere.
As for the motives of S&W, I think that they put in the heavy springs for liability reasons, not because they can't go lower. They want to make sure that they don't have any "accidental" shootings, so they make the double action pull so heavy that it takes a deliberate action to pull it back. A careful and well-trained user can safely use a lighter trigger pull.
I thought Jerry Miculek used a revolver with a 7 1/2 lb. pull. Perhaps I'm getting faulty info somewhere.
They put them in for "reliability" reasons, not "liability". Think about it for a few seconds.
S&W sells 1911-style pistols with 3.5 lbs/4lb trigger pulls from the factory. Why would they be afraid to sell a DA revolver with an 8.5lb pull? 7.5lb pull? If you sell a DA revolver that can be cocked and drop with a 2.5lb pull, why do you worry if what the DA pull is if your sole concern in "liability?"
You can swap the springs. You may get 100% reliability with many of the brands of ammo you try. But you won't get 100% reliability with all commercial ammo or all conventional reloads. But you will get much better results with stock springs.
The main concern of gun manufacturers is to turn out a dependable weapon that goes "bang" every time. They aren't terribly concerned with making it "not" go bang when you pull the trigger. The decision is up to you to pull the trigger.
If you do have him change the springs, be SURE to get the old ones back in case the gun prooves unreliable with your chosen ammunition. Then you won't have to call S&W and order new ones like so many people have to do.
Probably is. Actually, I thought it was lighter than that. But JM isn't using that gun as a home defense/carry weapon, and he has a team of technicians helping him tune multiple guns with carefully crafted target ammo for competition. If he has a misfire it might cost him a stage and some embarrassment, but it won't cost him his life. If you intend on using the gun strictly for plinking or competition, and want to spend time choosing and tuning ammo for it, that is a viable route to take.
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He may well, but I believe it's made on Smith & Wesson's N-frame, which is the largest if you exclude the massive X-frame.
The N-frame has the hammer and trigger pivot points much further apart then the little J-frame (which is the size revolver that's the subject of this thread) so the trigger has more leverage (mechanical advantage) when rotating the hammer backwards. The hammer itself is more massive, and rotates in a longer arc.
As Oro pointed out, Jerry's revolvers are perfectly tuned, and kept that way, and ammunition is carefully selected for the competition and exhibition shooting he is involved in.
The folks at Smith & Wesson are pretty sure that most of the considerable numbers of J-frame revolvers they sell are not going to be used for competition or exhibition shooting. They are weapons, and made to fit that role. So far as liability is concerned, they may hope that an owner does fool with the action, reduce spring tensions, whatever – because if the revolver fails to work and the “modifications” are discovered they are off the hook. It is unlikely that any court would lodge a judgment against them when some unauthorized aftermarket tampering caused a malfunction.
I understand why – for various reasons – people want ever lighter double-action trigger pulls on their revolvers, and I am well aware that some have reduced the pull’s weight with no apparent problem. But what they have really done is eliminate to some degree the safety margin that the manufacturer built in to insure TOTAL RELIABILITY.
All of this is not to say that the particular revolver in question can’t have the trigger pull improved, or at least made to feel that it’s better. There can be a difference between what a pull feels like it weighs, and what the weight really is. But getting that kind of trigger pull involves a lot more then polishing some parts and cutting spring tensions. It also involves some things that real professionals do that I never see discussed on Internet forums. That’s why I ask the question, “What jigs and fixtures does he have?”
And you know, that went right over everybody’s head…
rmfnla
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One important fact that I think has been overlooked (unless I missed it) is the J frame uses a coil mainspring, unlike every other S&W revolver (they all use leaf springs.)
Coil springs have different characteristics than leaf springs and are not as forgiving to modification.
Coil springs have different characteristics than leaf springs and are not as forgiving to modification.
procarryusa
Member
What about these springs? http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=375177 Will they help to lighten the pull? I test all my ammo before carrying it, so I'm not really worried. Are the springs all one needs for lightening the pull?
procarryusa
Member
@old fuff
Do you know what kind of jigs i should be looking for or are you just looking for someone to taunt who is trying to learn. I Don't enjoy being treated like i'm stupid.
Do you know what kind of jigs i should be looking for or are you just looking for someone to taunt who is trying to learn. I Don't enjoy being treated like i'm stupid.
rmfnla
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procarryusa: You can't test all your ammo without firing it. I know what you really meant, but your mis-statement illustrates why you don't go for the lightest trigger pull possible: You need a margin of reliaqblity to make sure all your ammo fires all the time.
The Wolf springs will help with your trigger pull. FYI, the trigger rebound spring is what determines the trigger pull. Note that the lightest trigger rebound spring is 13 lbs, a good bit more than the 8-1/2 you were quoted by your "gunsmith."
What do you need jigs for?
The Wolf springs will help with your trigger pull. FYI, the trigger rebound spring is what determines the trigger pull. Note that the lightest trigger rebound spring is 13 lbs, a good bit more than the 8-1/2 you were quoted by your "gunsmith."
What do you need jigs for?
triggerman770
Member
trigger pull
the fire control area is NOT a place for a non smith to start. When I do a trigger on a Smith(any frame) I will change the rebound spring and then polish all the bosses for the hammer and trigger. I polish the area on the frame where the rebound slide rides, and litely on the shelf where the sear rides(but not the bottom of the sear itself. this has generated very smooth pulls and winds up in the double action pull "feeling like 3-4 pounds" but actually being 7-8 pounds. Fuff is right about the trigger geometry on the J's being different from the k;l;n;x frome. I have a pre 36 Chiefs special that I'll be doing after I get the paying jobs out of the way
the fire control area is NOT a place for a non smith to start. When I do a trigger on a Smith(any frame) I will change the rebound spring and then polish all the bosses for the hammer and trigger. I polish the area on the frame where the rebound slide rides, and litely on the shelf where the sear rides(but not the bottom of the sear itself. this has generated very smooth pulls and winds up in the double action pull "feeling like 3-4 pounds" but actually being 7-8 pounds. Fuff is right about the trigger geometry on the J's being different from the k;l;n;x frome. I have a pre 36 Chiefs special that I'll be doing after I get the paying jobs out of the way
Mac's Precision
Member
I might suggest that your gunsmith may not have a full understanding of what he is doing. His experience and training may be in question if he is seriously suggesting such a thing. The J frame is not in any way the same as a K,L or N frame. His suggested 8.5 pound pull is totally inappropriate for a J frame and should not in any way be done. The J frame main spring should not be replaced or cut. Any alteration to the J frame Main spring can leave said gun unreliable due to light primer strikes. The very best you can hope for with a J frame is a quality internal polish job to reduce internal drag. The J frame will never feel like a tuned K frame no matter what you do so don't try to make it something you shouldn't. If the double action pull is too heavy for her to handle seek a different gun as modification of her gun will result in the hammer falling and then the loudest 'click' in the world.
I don't mean to make light of your requests or your selection of gunsmith in any way but I have been down this road many times and I have tried many of the available spring kits in my own model 60. Slick and reliable is your goal here...not slick, light pull and occasionally loud. The factory main spring is the heavy weight it is for a reason. That little hammer needs all it can to reliably pop primers. There just isn't enough mass or mechanical leverage to make due with less in this case.
As for polishing out the serrations on the trigger... Don't. If you remove enough metal to remove the grooves...the trigger will be quite thin. It will remain sturdy enough to shoot...but cosmetically it will look silly. One could...soften the sharp edges on the serrations...but don't attempt to totally remove them.
Cheers
Mac.
I don't mean to make light of your requests or your selection of gunsmith in any way but I have been down this road many times and I have tried many of the available spring kits in my own model 60. Slick and reliable is your goal here...not slick, light pull and occasionally loud. The factory main spring is the heavy weight it is for a reason. That little hammer needs all it can to reliably pop primers. There just isn't enough mass or mechanical leverage to make due with less in this case.
As for polishing out the serrations on the trigger... Don't. If you remove enough metal to remove the grooves...the trigger will be quite thin. It will remain sturdy enough to shoot...but cosmetically it will look silly. One could...soften the sharp edges on the serrations...but don't attempt to totally remove them.
Cheers
Mac.
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