New US armed forces/DoD XM9 contract; CNN.....

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CNN Money is reporting that the US DoD & armed forces will announce a new contract for a sidearm to replace the 30 year old M9 9mmNATO(Beretta USA).
It didn't say if the plans will continue with a R&D of a new sidearm caliber or if they will retain the 9mmNATO.
Smith & Wesson told CNN they will submit a new pistol. Beretta USA will too.
A Beretta USA exec said the gun maker has approx 20,000 new M9s left to meet a remaining M9 pistol contract with the US Army.

Last summer(2014) a "industry day" was set to draw interest & see what the big gun makers(FNH, Glock, HK, S&W, Beretta USA, etc) would do.
Glock is very popular in Europe. The UK(MoD) went with new Glock 17s generation four in 9mmNATO. To my limited knowledge, the SIGs are still in use by special operations(Royal Marines, SBS, SAS).
The CNN Money article didn't say if SIG Sauer's M11 compact will be phased out too or if a .40S&W/10mm/.45acp will be a factor.

Rusty
 
I know i'm an FNH fanboy, but I would think that the FNX-45 Tac would be a good fit if they want a full size gun in the .45 caliber.
 
SOCOM/Mk 23 mistakes.....

I just hope the DoD/DARPA/DA doesn't try & make the new sidearm everything for everyone like the 1990s era HK Mark 23 .45acp special operations sidearm. :rolleyes:
The big, bulky pistol had many gadgets & gizmos but in the end, the SEALs/SWCC/Rangers/AFSOC/Delta/ISA etc went back to the P226/P228 or the traditional SAO 1911/1911a1. A few Glocks were used too. :cool:
I think the SIG Sauer 320 series could be great. A modular design that troops or armorers can convert/clean quickly may be ideal. The drawback(s) would be maintaining all the parts & pieces :uhoh:. Having small parts break in harsh or demanding conditions is a bugger too.
Beretta USA could have some merit with the PX4 Storm but S&W & the M&P line has many fans.
I wouldn't feel unsafe or ill-equipped with a M&P type sidearm.

As for calibers, I won't re-tell my views but Id opt for a new .40Super/.41AE type round. A .357sig/.40Super type pistol bullet that can feed well & be powerful.
High vel & high KE level.
 
Awesome. So, instead of working on providing troops with decent communications gear, better armor, or anything that might actually make a difference in a war zone, they're replacing a proven handgun, a system that is so rarely used in modern warfare as to be arguably vestigial.

Government waste is the norm. I wish I was shocked.
 
It's not a new contract, it's a request for proposal, the same RFP they've been talking about on and off for years while continuing to procure more M9 pistols. In other words, nothing new or newsworthy here.
 
Posted by Lockedbreech:
Awesome. So, instead of working on providing troops with decent communications gear, better armor, or anything that might actually make a difference in a war zone, they're replacing a proven handgun, a system that is so rarely used in modern warfare as to be arguably vestigial.

"Proven handgun"

Proven to be mediocre.


"instead of working on providing troops with decent communications gear, better armor, or anything that might actually make a difference in a war zone"

New pistols need to be bought anyway, even if military keeps M9, new M9 is still needed to replace worn, lost, damaged ones. Judging from what I've seen in part wear and breakages, something like Glock 17 would cost significantly less in maintenance. This is coming from a person who does not even like Glock.

And, don't throw aroud phrases like "make a difference in a war zone" if you don't know what you're talking about. I had a pistol in a war zone. Soldiers cleared house with a pistol where rifles could not fit in. If it does not make a difference, then it should not be issued at all.

When my assignment was changed from a M203 gunner to armored vehicle driver, my rifle was taken. I was given an M9 with a bag of 50 or so loose 9mm. No training ammo. No pistol shooting training what so ever, as I recall. Why? Because someone who were making these irrisponsible decisions thought like YOU. If pistol "does not matter" then the same line of thinking leads to "pistol training does not matter."

What you think does not "make a difference," people like myself and many other soliders depended their life on it.
 
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TestPilot said:
"Proven handgun"

Proven to be mediocre.

Two of the most accomplished pistolsmiths and handgun experts in the world, Bill Wilson and Ernest Langdon, generally approve of the platform, including a recent Langdon class in which 11 92s of varying types, all straight out of the box, ran over 11,000 rounds without a single issue of any type, but I suppose your assertion of mediocrity without a single iota of data is something, too.

The remainder of your post is combative in tone and I don't really care to get into a snark match. It's totally okay to disagree with me without stating that I don't know what I'm talking about, there's no need to dial it up to 10 right away. I also think that blaming "people like ME" for a logistics issue you encountered is extremely silly. You do not have a monopoly on military service. Objective analysis of modern war will show plain as day that the pistol has clearly become less relevant, certainly less relevant than many other things that could use the money. A number of my own combat veteran acquaintances asserted that they never even touched their handguns outside out training and maintenance. Also, not to step on any toes, but military/police experience = / = firearms expertise. My 3-tour U.S. Marine friend went on a tirade about how much he liked his XD9 because it was made in America. Was stunned when I explained HS Produkt and the HS2000. Military service isn't proof of weapons knowledge or flaws of certain weapon systems. It's admirable, and should be considered, but it's not proof by itself.

Please tell me why a handgun, again, a nearly vestigial weapon in the modern war zone, is more important than funding things like improved communication gear. Also tell me how any gun on the market is a marked improvement over the 92. I would put a 92, cleaned and lubed out of the box, against literally any pistol on the market in terms of reliability. HK P30, Glock 17, M&P, any other gun, I'd bet the 92 would run as reliably or more reliably.

Also, if you'd care to do so, provide some evidence of the 92's mediocrity. Something other than a tiny handful of cracked slides from decades ago, cheap magazine issues that were rectified years ago, or jamming issues any pistol highly past its service window would not suffer.

Edit: For spelling
 
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It has to be a 9mm. There is too much investment by NATO (we are part of NATO) to change the caliber for all members. This is a standard acquisition process to look at new capabilities after so many years. Don't be surprised if the Baretta 92 Re-wins the contract. Politics and Money run the process.:banghead:
 
I personally don't understand why so many people hate the beretta 92. The main complaints I hear are: the grip, the size, and the DA/SA operation.
1. Just because it doesn't fit YOUR hand perfectly doesn't mean it's a bad pistol. Think about how many cops with smaller hands have to carry a glock 22 on a daily basis and don't complain about it.
2. It's a combat pistol. It's meant to be holstered to a soldier's side, not be carried inside the waistband. It also is big to sport a full length barrel and allow a soldier to easily get a full grip on the gun, especially while wearing gloves.
3. DA/SA hammer fired operation was required by government for an entry to be considered. As far as DA/SA pistols go, I'm sure most people (myself included) would have preferred the sig 226, but with government contracts it's always about the bottom line. Whether or not striker fired operation is easier to learn or more suitable for combat is neither here nor there.

From my (limited) experience, the beretta 92 is a solid combat pistol. Its open slide design makes FTE a non-issue, and makes clearing malfunctions much easier (which it doesn't seem to have issues with in the first place, according to army evaluation). I'm not a beretta fanboy, and it wouldn't be my first choice for my everyday shooting/concealed carry gun, but it flat out works as a combat sidearm.
 
What a waste of time and money... The hangun simply does not play that big a roll in modern warfare. You will have to stay with 9mm because if NATO and honestly I cannot see anything anyone is proposing being a major improvement over the M9 enough to justify the costs.

When my assignment was changed from a M203 gunner to armored vehicle driver, my rifle was taken. I was given an M9 with a bag of 50 or so loose 9mm. No training ammo. No pistol shooting training what so ever, as I recall. Why? Because someone who were making these irrisponsible decisions thought like YOU. If pistol "does not matter" then the same line of thinking leads to "pistol training does not matter."

What you think does not "make a difference," people like myself and many other soliders depended their life on it.

That is unfortunate but how is changing the pistol they gave you going to change the fact you got no training ammo or pistol training at all? The reality is if this goes through there would be less money for training ammo and training. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bath water. It is not the M9 that is the problem in your scenario. What makes you think a different pistol would lead to better outcomes for you?
 
FN knows how to sell guns to the military. The fact is there are probably a dozen guns now that would be good choices. Its not like the 80s where everyone knew it would be Sig or Beretta. I don't see them getting rid of the requirement for a safety so probably not a Glock.
 
FN knows how to sell guns to the military. The fact is there are probably a dozen guns now that would be good choices. Its not like the 80s where everyone knew it would be Sig or Beretta. I don't see them getting rid of the requirement for a safety so probably not a Glock.

Current FN pistols would be a nightmare IMHO. Over designed internally and would make it harder than necessary to detail strip and therefore harder to maintain in the field. IMHO YMMV

They do know how to sell guns to the military I will give you that!!!
 
I don't know Testpilot or anything about him. However, I know my military experience and the experiences of those whom I served alongside.

One thing to note is that while there are thousands of veterans that served honorably in combat zones, there is a big difference in experiences between those whose job was to directly prosecute the fight on a daily basis, and those that provided support for the mission. The enemy threat was all around and not one of us was safe from it while in-theater. We all have our experiences from facing those dangers, but not all had/have the same requirements of their issued equipment. What some experts may agree is the finest of firearms can turn out to be a hunk of junk under the rigors of the combat environment.

(On a separate note, I don't know what Testpilot's reason is for addressing you in the direct manner he chose, but I do know that I generally don't appreciate people taking on, and/or using the experiences of others as factual rebuttal of their own. You may or may not have served in a combat zone. Your combat vet acquaintances may have faced the dangers of prosecuting the fight, or they may have faced the dangers of maintaining a defensive posture against a pursing threat. Then again, they may have never left their FOB except to fly in and out of country. That had its own dangers to be faced as well. Those are all variables in credence to a discussion.)

As for better equipment, the Army has had a seemingly almost continuous influx of new equipment at all levels since the early 2000's. Some of that equipment is really good. Some of it gets an 'A' for effort but an 'F' for success. All of it was an improvement over the gear I was issued until 2001 came along. Before that, it was all very similar to the gear used in Viet Nam.

In the end, our soldiers have always had the best gear available from the lowest bidder. Maybe that's where the changes need to be made. How? Beats me.

On topic, M9's have always worked out fine for me in training and combat scenarios. However, I'm much more at home using a 1911. Until a hand injury came up a few years ago, HK USPs were good as well. I'll have to give a Sig a try as a replacement for the HK and see how it goes.
 
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Two of the most accomplished pistolsmiths and handgun experts in the world, Bill Wilson and Ernest Langdon, generally approve of the platform, including a recent Langdon class in which 11 92s of varying types, all straight out of the box, ran over 11,000 rounds without a single issue of any type, but I suppose your assertion of mediocrity...

You'll find any "handgun experts" that will vouch for your favorite brand if you find hard enough. That means nothing.
From a modern pistol stand point, 11000 rounds is nothing to be impressed about. So, a brand new brand name pistol withstood a few day course?

Hey, wait a minute. I don't know of any pistol training course, other than a special force training, that each person shoot 11000 rounds for a class. Are you talking 11000 rounds from each pistol, or 11000 rounds combined from all 11 pistols?

...without a single iota of data is something, too.

It seems that you have no problem with that since you don't know what data I do or do not have.

The last unit I was attached to had about 30% in the inventory that was malfunctioning.


...Objective analysis of modern war will show plain as day that the pistol has clearly become less relevant, certainly less relevant than many other things that could use the money.
...
That's your subjective analysis. Things do not become objective simply because you say so.

Whether if pistol is relevant or not totally depends on type of conflict. If it's a door to door, cave to cave infantry battle, then it is relevant. If it's a tank battle, then it is not relevant. But, how many M1 Abrams do you see doing house searches?
Special forces soldiers carry pistols, and it is certainly not because they feel they need a "badge of office."

If you think pistol is not relevant, then why don't you advocate getting rid of them alltogether?

A number of my own combat veteran acquaintances asserted that they never even touched their handguns outside out training and maintenance.

I never touched an MLRS while in the army, and never requested fire mission from them while on theater either, but I would not say they are irrelevant.

Also, not to step on any toes, but military/police experience = / = firearms expertise. My 3-tour U.S. Marine friend went on a tirade about how much he liked his XD9 because it was made in America. Was stunned when I explained HS Produkt and the HS2000. Military service isn't proof of weapons knowledge or flaws of certain weapon systems. It's admirable, and should be considered, but it's not proof by itself.

You're presenting a false dillema, implying that one is either an expert or nothing.

Being a soldier or cop does not make one an expert on everything gun related.

However, it DOES make them a credible source on what they have experienced, and it DOES make them an expert on what they are trained on.

I have used M9. I have seen it malfunction. Altough I was not given training on it on my first tour, I was trained on it on my second tour.

Please tell me why a handgun, again, a nearly vestigial weapon in the modern war zone, is more important than funding things like improved communication gear.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said one was more important than the other.

I did say buying an off the shelf pistol with a manufacturing cost and maintenance cost lower than M9 would not have any significant financial impact on availability on critical communications equipment.

I was in line infantry, and I never remember there being a radio shortage. I do not ever remember a body armor shortage either. Sure, there were some brand some soldiers were raving over, thinking it was better than the issued ones. But, reason we did not get those was not because of money shortages. It was because Army would not approve them, even if solders wanted to pay out of their own pocket.

Also tell me how any gun on the market is a marked improvement over the 92. I would put a 92, cleaned and lubed out of the box, against literally any pistol on the market in terms of reliability. HK P30, Glock 17, M&P, any other gun, I'd bet the 92 would run as reliably or more reliably.

Also, if you'd care to do so, provide some evidence of the 92's mediocrity. Something other than a tiny handful of cracked slides from decades ago, cheap magazine issues that were rectified years ago, or jamming issues any pistol highly past its service window would not suffer.

Edit: For spelling

My gripe has nothing to do with SEAL slide incident or Checkmate magazine fiasco.

You only mention reliability, as if that's the only factor. New service pistol shoudl look at the totality, which includes training and cost.

Here's a short incomplete list of why I think newer pistols would serve better:

- Glock/M&P types are more easier to train with. They also provide no less reliabliity with less manufacture and maintenance cost.

- M9's baked on type finish flaked off. It would not have happened as easily with Tenifer or Melonite type finish available on Glock or M&P.

- Any armorer will attest that Glock or M&P will be easier to maintain and more simple than M9.

- Beretta also has small parts that are prone to wear, such as springs on the slide lever. That is impossible to happen with Glock or M&P since they do not have the slide lever.

- Newer pistols have far better trigger reach, improving accuracy and training ease for smaller size soliders.
 
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Having been involved in the procurement and budgeting process for the M-9 and the Sig 228 (for OSI), I can tell you there is very little interest in small arms in general, and handguns in particular, at the Pentagon level.

Add to that recent budget cuts and the sequester and the need to pay for the new, new, effort in Iraq, and program dollars are mighty scarce.

The people who really need and use handguns manage to get them in relatively small numbers via special contracts and budgeting. So beyond that, the brass feels that the M-9 is fine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm relating the facts as I see them. Personally I'd like to see the M9 replaced. It's old and heavy and big and I've never liked it. Lots of better options out there. I just don't see it happening in today's climate.
 
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As remembered from many years ago, 1967, Brown Hall Infantry leadership Ft Benning, Ga. "the ultimate authority of every officer in the armed forces of the United States of America resides in his sidearm, by act of Congress." Since we have approx. a quarter million Comissioned officers it would seem that Congress is committed to having in excess of 250,000 sidearms available. This is not an insignificant amount. Assessing the number of side arms needed for military police, security, crew served weapons and combat would probably up the amount needed. Anybody got an official list of projected TO&E ???

blindhari
 
That is unfortunate but how is changing the pistol they gave you going to change the fact you got no training ammo or pistol training at all? The reality is if this goes through there would be less money for training ammo and training. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bath water. It is not the M9 that is the problem in your scenario. What makes you think a different pistol would lead to better outcomes for you?

You missed my point. I am not saying a different pistol would have got me training.

My point is that the "pistol does not matter" attitude is what got me in that situation.

Sorry for being too confrontational, but that is why "pistol does not matter" attitude stirs up some emotion from me.
 
Putting your emotions aside for a moment with proper training what and trigger time what is wrong with the M9.
 
I personally don't understand why so many people hate the beretta 92. The main complaints I hear are: the grip, the size, and the DA/SA operation.

Okay, I will try to dial back from being too confrontational.

First off, and I can only speak for myself, I do not hate M9.

I just think it is mediocre. I guess that stirs some emotion from some people, but I do not mean M9 does not work or that it is a piece of junk.

What I mean by that is that in current manufacturing standards, it does not do anything particularly better at a higher cost.

Sure, it works most of the time when cared for and it is accurate. But, what pistol doesn't? That's not excellence. If that is all it has going for, then it is mediocre when compared to other pistols that offer more at a lower cost.

1. Just because it doesn't fit YOUR hand perfectly doesn't mean it's a bad pistol. Think about how many cops with smaller hands have to carry a glock 22 on a daily basis and don't complain about it.

What makes you think they don't complain? Ever heard about FBI being sued over the matter?

I don't bash pistols simply because it does not fit my hand. However, if a general issue pistol does not properly fit a significant portion of the people who are supposed to use it, wouldn't you think it is a problem?

2. It's a combat pistol. It's meant to be holstered to a soldier's side, not be carried inside the waistband. It also is big to sport a full length barrel and allow a soldier to easily get a full grip on the gun, especially while wearing gloves.

I did not hear much about over all size complaint from soldiers. I did hear complaint about grip size and trigge reach.

3. DA/SA hammer fired operation was required by government for an entry to be considered. As far as DA/SA pistols go, I'm sure most people (myself included) would have preferred the sig 226, but with government contracts it's always about the bottom line. Whether or not striker fired operation is easier to learn or more suitable for combat is neither here nor there.

That may be the case back in the first contract. But, if new pistol contract does not mandate DA/SA, then it does become a relevant matter.

From my (limited) experience, the beretta 92 is a solid combat pistol. Its open slide design makes FTE a non-issue, and makes clearing malfunctions much easier (which it doesn't seem to have issues with in the first place, according to army evaluation).

Failure to eject results in casing being stuck between the breech face and the rear of the barrel. So, the slide top being open has no relevance. I have seen M92 malfunction that way, although I do not think it is a common problem.

Also, malfunction clearing with M9 is actually harder. I have to take caution to not trip the slide lever down, eitther that or I have to take an extra step to flip it back up. Non-issue with Glock, M&P, etc.

There are two types of self-loaders that I loathe doing malfunction clearings. One is M9 types with slide levers. The other is CZ types with narrow slide surface to grab.
 
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The real deal....

I often derailed the forum messages saying the DoD & armed forces reports saying a "new sidearm" was on the way but this new article seems to be the genuine article.
I toted a M9 9mmNATO both in CONUS(the USA) & overseas while in the US military. I also owned 2 law enforcement surplus 96D .40S&W pistols.
I agree the M9 is rather large & bulky for most shooters/troops.
I'm also not fond of the slide mounted safety & the off-balance feel of the M9 alloy frame. The M9's often maligned open style slide isn't a great feature either but in fairness, I never had any cycle-feeding issues with either 9x19mm or .40 rounds(FMJ, JHP, pre-fragmented, reloads, etc).

FWIW; as a left handed shooter/gun owner, the SIG P226/P226R & M11 felt great. ;)
If I had a choice as a CIDC agent, MI group member or aircrew, Id ask for a DAK(DA only) version.

A Glock gen 04(maybe 5 with a added safety or new DoD design specs) could do fine.
My issue with the "modular" style guns is that parts & frame-grips may be lost or damaged. :(
Soldiers should able to field strip, clean or service the sidearms quickly & without any special tools.
A chrome or surface protected/lined pistol barrel that's polygonal would be nice.
 
The CNN Money article didn't say if SIG Sauer's M11 compact will be phased out too or if a .40S&W/10mm/.45acp will be a factor.

Some years back, there were serious rumors from "those-in-the-know" in NATO circles suggesting NATO was going to dump the 9-minimeter in favor of adopting the American .40S&W - but only if re-named with a new European-acceptable designation of "10mmNATO." :scrutiny:
 
"I just think it is mediocre. I guess that stirs some emotion from some people, but I do not mean M9 does not work or that it is a piece of junk."
Yup, a shining beacon of infallible reliability, same as all the others :D (we have it so good, nowadays, technologically :p). So it's just as functional as anything else (those of us who hate slide safeties would say otherwise, but whatever), but is entirely steel, big, and heavy --very much unlike what our standard rifle/carbine has become-- with all the logistical costs inherent in that. Lots of folks will contest the 'big' factor, which is admittedly more psychological than anything, but a grip that feels as wide as a High Power and as long as a 1911 contributes greatly to that, and for no particular purpose (if gloves are considered, you actually want a smaller grip, too). See the Strike One for a pistol that's about the same barrel/grip size, with a very similar action, that looks downright dainty in proportions to the Beretta; there's just a lot of unnecessary stuff in there.

Honestly, the whole reason the M9 was adopted in the first place was because the contest was fixed by the requirement of an open top slide, which history has since shown to be a complete, utter, non issue of non issues (same as it was with service rifles, btw). A requirement that resulted in some other important compromises in the design (beefier/thicker side rails to compensate)

+1000 on the lack of a need for this continual 'reevaluation' nonsense. It is nothing but DoD welfare at is most brazen (meanwhile we seem to have a continual shortage of cruise missiles when we need them, and lord knows tons of other stuff). I highly doubt S&W and the others get much cheese, merely being bidders, but they are basically forced to keep playing in order to stay in the game for whenever we get around to actually doling out some funds. The most realistic prospects for the project are that it will make its way into their civilian-marketed designs (corporations seem to love fronting R&D on risky 'big win' gambles like government contracts, but prefers a conservative approach of resting on laurels when it comes to serving the masses. My theory is because the benefits of a 'big win' are easier to articulate in upper management slide shows than ongoing development of a product line that is already selling)

TCB
 
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