Newbie .38spl / .357mag Questions

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erikras

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I've had my press for a while now, but have hardly had a chance to use it. I'd like to load some .38sp and .357mag loads this week. I have plenty of brass for both. I have a few questions:

1) Are Winchester Small Pistol and CCI Small Pistol primers interchangeable? Some manuals call for CCI. Some call for Winchester. I have 4,000 CCI's.

2) Some manuals call for a Magnum primer for .357mag. Others call for a standard SP primer. I have 200 WSPMs. Hodgdon's load data on their website doesn't even specify. What should I use?

3) I bought 100 158gr JHP bullets a couple of years ago. They were bulk from the LGS. I cannot remember what they are. I think Remington, but I'm not sure. I usually use Hornady, but I'd like to load up some practice rounds with these bulk bullets rather than let them go to waste. Should I subtract the difference in bullet length between the bulk vs. a Hornady 158gr from the OAL that the manual calls for to determine the OAL? Is that a safe assumption? (ie. If the bulk bullets are 0.05" shorter than the Hornady, I should seat them so the cartridge OAL is 0.05" shorter than the manual calls for with the Hornady?)

4) The bulk bullets don't have a cannelure to crimp into. Normally I use a Redding taper crimp die after seating the bullet. What's the recommended method of crimping revolver rounds without a cannelure? My Lyman bullet seating die has the ability to crimp.

Components I have on hand:
Bulk 158gr JHPs (Remington I think) - 100
Hornady XTP JHP 158gr - 100
Hornady XTP JHP 125gr - 100
CCI 500 SP Primers - 4000
Winchester SPM Primers - 200
Alliant Unique Powder - 1LB
Hodgdon Titegroup Powder - 1LB

These were going to be my starting loads:

.38sp Practice
Bulk 158gr JHP
3.5gr Titegroup
CCI 500 SP Primer
1.455" COL

.38sp Target
Hornady XTP JHP 158gr
4.5gr Unique
CCI 500 SP Primer
1.450" COL

.357mag Target
Hornady XPT JHP 125gr
7.7gr Unique
CCI 500 SP Primer
1.590" COL

I'm a little unsure with the .357mag load. The Hornady 7th Ed manual doesn't list Unique Powder and the Alliant website doesn't list the Hornady bullet. Alliant says [STRIKE]7.7gr[/STRIKE] 9.6gr Unique with a Speer GDHP [STRIKE]158gr[/STRIKE] 125gr and [STRIKE]1.575"[/STRIKE] 1.580" COL.

Any advice or warnings would be appreciated. My gun is a S&W 327 Perf Ctr 8-shot 357mag.
 
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Follow what the manual says. If it calls for a certain powder for 158gr bullet, put that much powder in. If you have a different kind of bullet than in manual but same grain, use that info as well as the COAL. Not every manual is going to have every bullet and powder.

Get a couple manuals to cross reference. I did that, and know I have the loads I want so I hi lighted them or printed them out. Makes it a lot easier that haveing 3 or 4 huge reloading manuals plopped down beside you.
 
1) Are Winchester Small Pistol and CCI Small Pistol primers interchangeable? Some manuals call for CCI. Some call for Winchester. I have 4,000 CCI's
Click to expand...

I use them interchangeably for any loads but full house magnums. These you need to work up to individually with each different brand of primer.

Some manuals call for a Magnum primer for .357mag. Others call for a standard SP primer
Click to expand...

This depends on what powder you are using. Some of the slow magnum powders require magnum primers to lite them and some don't. Reference your manuals for this. H110 is one that needs a magnum primer and 2400 is one that doesn't, just for an example. They are both magnum powders though.

Should I subtract the difference in bullet length between the bulk vs. a Hornady 158gr from the OAL that the manual calls for to determine the OAL? Is that a safe assumption?
Click to expand...
Again, I wouldn't worry about that unless I'm loading full house magnums, you said you wanted to make practice loads. The barrel bearing surface on most 158gr jacketed bullets are pretty much the same length, the nose varies quite a bit.

The bulk bullets don't have a cannelure to crimp into
Click to expand...
If you have really good neck tension that shouldn't be much of an issue in a revolver. If you plan on using these in a .357mag rifle with a tube magazine you may want to use a different bullet. When they are end to end in a tube magazine you may get bullet setback with out a cannular to crimp into.
Something else you need to pay attenion to is that with powders like H110 and 2400, you really do need a good crimp since these are pressure building powders, to hold the bullet back to get reliable ignition and a complete burn.

Faster burning powders like you listed don't require this heavy crimp so you should be fine without it unless you are using a tube magazine.

As far as your loads go, go online to the powder companies like Hodgdons and so forth, they have a lot of data there.
 
Yea, ok, If you are using plated bullets you don't want to use a roll crimp. It could cut through the plating leaving part of the plating in your barrel as an obstruction.

I've been using Berry's plated in my .357 mag revolvers for years and don't "crimp" them at all. I use my flaring die, set at the bare minumum, to get the most neck tension I can get.

I trim all my .357mag cases to the same length so I can set my crimp die to just make sure the mouth is staightened back out, but no crimp. It's not hard to do if the cases are all the same length.

As far as the .357mag load you have listed, 7.7 gr of Unique should be fine for a starting load for 125 gr jhp. Lyman's 49edition shows 7.0 gr of unique as starting load for a 125gr jacketed @ 990 fps and 9.7 gr as max load at 1359fps.

I noticed you listed 125 gr XTP as your .357mag load, then referenced data for the 158gr spear GDHPs and indicated them as your starting load, I wouldn't do that in the future.

You can use JHP data for any of the JHPs as long as you don't use it for maximum loads. Seating depth of the bullet/type of powder used gets critical at max loads.
 
If they are bulk Remingtons, then I would mike them and weigh them. They may be 9mm 147gr JHP. If so, you can't use them in your revolver unless you have awesome skillz.

If they are plated, don't shoot them at full 357 velocity. Just use them for plinking. Crimp over the shoulder instead of into the plating. Adjust your load to match. But you should not have a pressure issue being they are .050" shorter.
 
For future reference, keep your bullets in the original container/package. It should be labeled with the bullet size and weight. Bulk quantities may not be so you need to label them. The difference between a 9mm and 38 isn't much so you need a good mic to check them. My advice is if there is any doubt, throw them out. I would not take a chance for $20 of bullets.

The same is true with powder. Never ever mix them. Keep the powder in the original container tightly sealed. Return any un-used powder to the container immediately after you are done reloading.

I use and old RCBS single stage press and weigh every powder charge. Takes a little longer, but I want to make sure it is right. Most of the time they are spot on and when they aren't the difference is so small it would not matter anyway. I do one round at a time. Probably the smarter way would be to load powder in every round and visually compare them before seating the bullet. I have heard of guns being destroyed and the shooter seriously injured because of a hand load with no powder. The bullet would stick in the barrel and the next round would hit it. I would have thought the shooter would have noticed the lack of recoil.

As previously stated, bullet seat depth can be critical at maximum loads. Personally I never go much above minimum but do use different powders for the same bullet weight. For pistol hand loads, I have never been able to see a difference when using a different powder weight. I have loads that are comfotable and reliable so I just stick with them. Rifle or competition shooters might see the difference but my skill level negates any potential gain of a different load.

Reloading is a great hobby and you can save some bucks if you shoot enough. Just make sure you have a good work area with no interruptions and pay attention to what you are doing.
 
Since you're loading for a wheel gun, seat the bullets to the cannelure and crimp making sure that they aren't to long for the cylinder.
When using data from a general weight bullet, always start at the min charge weight and work up from there.
 
Spade5 said:
For future reference, keep your bullets in the original container/package. It should be labeled with the bullet size and weight. Bulk quantities may not be so you need to label them. The difference between a 9mm and 38 isn't much so you need a good mic to check them. My advice is if there is any doubt, throw them out. I would not take a chance for $20 of bullets.
Click to expand...
First off, welcome to the forum...

I'm going to have to disagree with the above. There is no reason to throw out a perfectly good box of bullets. Even though there is a difference between a .38 Special and 9mm bullet that difference is easily measured. Add the fact 9mm bullets have no cannalure and most .38 bullets do, it's hard to mistake them if you take the time to measure them. I see no reason to throw away perfectly good bullets.

Spade5 said:
The same is true with powder. Never ever mix them. Keep the powder in the original container tightly sealed. Return any un-used powder to the container immediately after you are done reloading.
Click to expand...
Now there is some outstanding advice. Any powder you are not 100% sure of should be used on the lawn but not for loading. Always put powders in their original container and if that's not possible clearly mark the can and include the Lot # when possible. Another hint, have only the powder can you are working with on the loading bench. Only one on the bench at a time.
 
Winchester small pistol magnum primers are probably the hottest pistol primer on the market. There's no need to use mag primers with easily lit powders like Unique or Tightgroup. There use is only needed in slow and hard to ignite ball powders like H110/W296. SPM primers can be used with regular powders but you should make sure to start at the proper start loads (10% reduced from maximum) and work up watching for pressure signs if you substitute mag primers in place of standard primers.

With the components you have I'd just use the CCI standard primers.
 
Thanks everyone for the detailed replies! It's much appreciated!

I'll try to address a few questions and things brought up:

First, I had some typos in the last paragraph of my original post. I was looking at 158gr bullets on Alliant's website when I meant to be looking at 125gr. My question was whether or not it was safe to use a Hornady 125gr JHP when Alliant's site specifies a Speer GDHP 125gr? This question seems to be answered, that yes, it is safe as long as I start low and work my way up on the load.

Next, the "bulk" bullets are not plated and are indeed .357" diameter. I checked them with a known accurate caliper and compared to the Hornady .357" diameter bullets I have on hand. See pics below. Sorry for the cruddy photos.

38-158jhp-top.jpg

38-158jhp-bottom.jpg

Next, I do have a few loading manuals. I have the Nosler 7th Ed, Hornady 7th Ed, and Lyman 49th Ed. The Sierra will probably be the next one I buy since their bullets are common for rifle. Just in this one case none of the three manuals nor Alliant's website listed a combination for a 125gr Hornady bullet and Unique powder.

Everything I have is in clearly marked containers. These "bulk" bullets were the only odd item. I had them marked ".38sp 158gr" but wasn't sure of the manufacturer. Since they were bulk, they just came in a plain bag.

I know not to mix powders, but thank you for the reminder. All unused items stay in dry boxes until I'm ready to use them. So yes, I only have the powder, primers, and bullets that I'm currently loading out on the bench.

Thank you all again for your time and help!
 
looks much like a Sierra plated HP. Are they copper colored or just shiny gray? Pics are good but I can't tell the color. They look to have a tinge of copper color...
 
On Hodgdon's website, search for your data, then click the print button.
You don't have to actually "print" it, but it'll give you the "rest of the story"

(like what primers, etc)

rcmodel taught me that one!
 
Ex said:
looks much like a Sierra plated HP. Are they copper colored or just shiny gray? Pics are good but I can't tell the color. They look to have a tinge of copper color...
Click to expand...

They're copper. In hind sight, using my orange dry box for a background wasn't the greatest idea!!
 
"1) Are Winchester Small Pistol and CCI Small Pistol primers interchangeable? Some manuals call for CCI. Some call for Winchester. I have 4,000 CCI's.

2) Some manuals call for a Magnum primer for .357mag. Others call for a standard SP primer. I have 200 WSPMs. Hodgdon's load data on their website doesn't even specify. What should I use?

3) I bought 100 158gr JHP bullets a couple of years ago. They were bulk from the LGS. I cannot remember what they are. I think Remington, but I'm not sure. I usually use Hornady, but I'd like to load up some practice rounds with these bulk bullets rather than let them go to waste. Should I subtract the difference in bullet length between the bulk vs. a Hornady 158gr from the OAL that the manual calls for to determine the OAL? Is that a safe assumption? (ie. If the bulk bullets are 0.05" shorter than the Hornady, I should seat them so the cartridge OAL is 0.05" shorter than the manual calls for with the Hornady?)

4) The bulk bullets don't have a cannelure to crimp into. Normally I use a Redding taper crimp die after seating the bullet. What's the recommended method of crimping revolver rounds without a cannelure? My Lyman bullet seating die has the ability to crimp."

By your numbers:

1) Small primers are basically the same, as are large primers. However, there are differences, both planned and not. Magnum primers flash greater/hotter flame. Some makers use harder/thicker cup metals. Some primers have 2 anvil legs, where others have 3. In general, interchanging CCI with Winchester with Federal with Remington or any others, as long as each loading group is consistent, who cares. That doesn't mean you should switch Rifle primers with Pistol primers.

2) Magnum primers are used with powders that are harder to get going. It is not connected with the name given to the casing. Same as the listing above for 'small' primers. Changing from or to is not a big deal. I have used Magnum primers for/with IMR4831 and 2400 powders. Some say that I should with 296/H110, but I have never had any problems.

3) The over all length concern with loading revolver rounds is two part. First that the rounds are short enough to not extend past the cylinder face. And second, that there is suitable amount of bullet in the case to securely hold the bullet. The same essential limits apply with other weapons. Only cylinder length is replaces with magazine length and to some extent, to keep the bullet out of the rifling on some weapons.

4) Crimping is useful/needed for the following: Prevent/reduce the chance of the bullets being driven deeper into the case during chambering (auto-loaders). Prevent/reduce the chance of the bullet being dislodged during heavy recoil and easing froward, locking up the revolver. To increase the bullet 'pull' to allow for increased pressures so full or better powder burns can occur. If you feel that a crimp is needed, the taper crimp dies do fine. I don't role crimp anything and use LEE Factory Taper Crimps on .40S&Ws and .45 ACPs. I don't use any crimp on .44 Mags. Do what you think is proper.

I don't care what the 'Recipe' may be. It is only a starting point for the development of a load. Start low and slowly work up/to the point that your load meets your needs. ALWAYS watching for any pressure signs. If you are loading a .38 Spec, don't try to load it to .357 Mag specs. Loading .357 Mags and want more, look to .41 Mags or .44 Mags or ....

Build your load with your selected components. Change components, built a new loading with the changed components. Many times, lower level loads may be adjusted with minor component changes without more than a load check. Always error on the side of safety.
 
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oldpapps,
Thanks much for the detailed reply. You've confirmed a lot of what I've been reading. Especially on the topic of crimping revolver rounds.

I plan to start on the recommended low end from the manuals (or max minus 10-15% if a range isn't given) and probably stay in that neighborhood unless I find reason (ie. accuracy) to increase the load. From what people have said here and other places, I probably won't notice much change in accuracy with a hotter load in a 5" barrel revolver.
 
"start on the recommended low end from the manuals (or max minus 10-15% if a range isn't given)"

Some powders (296 comes to mind) should not be reduced or upped per the manufactures. Reportedly strange pressure changes occur.
My use for 296/H110 has been in 300 Blackouts and I have varied/adjusted the load a lot. So, I don't know. Others that know more may enlighten us.

I just don't want to give the impression that all powder can/should be juggled. The manufactures know best (we hope).
 
.38spl Berry's 125gr hp load data for 700X

I have some 125gr Berry's HP bullets coming and found some 700X. The best data I can find for .38 spl is 3.6 - 4.2 gr of powder for both jacketed and lead bullets.

I also saw a good post to go light on the expander vs. a light crimp to keep from cutting through the plating. I haven't loaded pistol for years, but usually experiment with a few w/o powder when setting up my dies.

The gun is a 642 that I haven't shot yet!!

Does this look like it's in the ballpark for what others are loading?

J
 
Why do newbies always bump a 4 month old thread?
The OP (and everyone else) moved on the 1st of January. :rolleyes:

Start a new thread, ask your question. It will get responses.
 
orionengnr said:
Why do newbies always bump a 4 month old thread?
The OP (and everyone else) moved on the 1st of January. :rolleyes:

Start a new thread, ask your question. It will get responses.
Click to expand...
At least this thread is in the same year. Much of the time they bump a 3 or 4 year load thread and bring it back from the Abyss!

I agree, start a new thread and you will get a quicker answer that's just for you instead of everyone trying to go through all the old posts before they realize the thread is old.
 
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