Newbie .38spl / .357mag Questions

[Walkalong]

Both of the posters in question are good folks and very helpful here in the reloading forum. Part of how we learn is veterans fussing a little. It's all good.

Start a new thread, ask your question. It will get responses.

That is good advise actually. It gives you a better chance of more people seeing and reading the new thread with a specific question, which means more answers.

 

[baz]

I've been reloading .38 spl +P and .357 for a few years now. But I've learned a lot from reading the responses in this thread, and am preserving them for future reference. Thanks to everyone.

 

[918v]

I like living in the past, so I will again recommend people seat these bullets deeper and crimp over the shoulder instead of digging the case mouth into a nonexistent cannelure.

 

[Jframenewbee]

I get it.....will do

J

 

[Jframenewbee]

Quote:

"recommend people seat these bullets deeper and crimp over the shoulder instead of digging the case mouth into a nonexistent cannelure."

V,

What do you mean? You mean shoulder as in the part of the bullet that tapers away toward the point?

J

 

[au_prospector]

Careful here I think...

"recommend people seat these bullets deeper and crimp over the shoulder instead of digging the case mouth into a nonexistent cannelure."

This does not sound right to me.

 

[918v]

From the OP:

4) The bulk bullets don't have a cannelure to crimp into. Normally I use a Redding taper crimp die after seating the bullet. What's the recommended method of crimping revolver rounds without a cannelure? My Lyman bullet seating die has the ability to crimp.

The OP is using a .357 Magnum revolver.

The bullets the OP is using don't have a cannelure to crimp into.

Yes, seating deeper raises pressures, so you reduce the load accordingly. For example, you can use .38 Special data with these loaded.

A bullet seated deeper and crimped over the shoulder are alot more appropriate for a revolver than bullets crimped into a nonexistent cannelure.

 

[au_prospector]

This is new to me, just asking

Yeah I understand what you are saying.

He stated he was a newbie. IMHO he should be saving his non cannelure bullets for .38 spl where they will load and shoot just fine and get ahold of some bullets with a crimping cannelure for .357 mag full boat.

Also I have loaded and shot non cannelure .357 158 grain berry's with no crimp. Shouldnt be much of a problem if your shooting revolver low to medium loads.

How does seating the bullet deep and crimping over the taper of the bullet keep the bullet from pushing even deeper into the case when its banged around in a tube magazine or magnum recoil? Just asking, maybe it does but it sounds like taking an unnecessary risk to me is all.

 

[germ]

...
How does seating the bullet deep and crimping over the taper of the bullet keep the bullet from pushing even deeper into the case when its banged around in a tube magazine or magnum recoil? Just asking, maybe it does but it sounds like taking an unnecessary risk to me is all.

The OP is shooting a revolver, I didn't see mention of a rifle so a tube magazine does not apply in this case. For the revolver, the crimp is to prevent the bullet from pulling OUT and interfering with rotation of the cylinder. Think about it.

 

[918v]

How does seating the bullet deep and crimping over the taper of the bullet keep the bullet from pushing even deeper into the case when its banged around in a tube magazine or magnum recoil?

How is a nonexistent cannelure gonna do it? Pushing the case mouth into the bullet and deforming the bullet shank does absolutely nothing to increase case tension. It actually ruins it.

 

[Walkalong]

Crimping a non cannelured bullet too much can indeed actually hurt or destroy, depending on how much you crimp, neck tension due to the different spring back rates of brass and lead. See here.

He can roll crimp over the shoulder, reducing the charge accordingly as posted, or save those bullets for another application, and buy a good bullet with a cannelure or crimping groove for his full house .357 mag loads. Another good option already posted.

That is an interesting bullet in the pic. I would use them for something other than full house .357 mag loads, but you can probably make them work if you lightly roll crimp over the start of the ogive. Shoulder/whatever. I bet they (125 Gr, right?) would shoot great in 9MM.

 

[caster]

I would use a different bullet. Trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear to save a few bucks on cheapo bullets is a bad habit to get started. It will be much easier to use the bullets without the cannelure elsewhere than to accurately (or arbitrarily) judge the proper amount to reduce the load to compensate for a deeper seat.

Safe reloading is about stringent discipline - period. Being new to the hobby and right out of the box trying to make a monkey screwing a football load work to save a few bucks is in my opinion purely insane.

Maybe after you have some solid experience under your belt and can miraculously predict non-linear acceleration rates of smokeless powder on the fly, but until then, do you feel better going with just a hope or are you going all out and be relying upon a prayer as well ?

Does simply winging a load together in the attempt to make your bullet purchase useable and gaining less than responsible recommendations from the internet crowd seem to anyone else to be one click short of "WTH... I spent 20 bucks on bullets so I have to use them no matter the potential for (possibly) catastrophic results" ?

If you are new to reloading; stop; go read the safety information in your loading manuals (assuming you have a few), then ask yourself "Did I see anything that indicated winging a load to save 20 bucks was a good and safe practice ?"

You might get lucky, but, I would really hope the plating on those bullets is perfectly uniform, all the brass you are using is the same headstamp with the same internal capacity and you were using a powder that will allow reduction into uncharted territory without causing a detonation, squib or stripping the plating bullet when it jumps the gap into the forcing cone.

I know everyone here is trying to help, but should the advice to a newbie be to use this as an opportunity to develop life long habits that will serve him well, or, sending him down a dubious road at best because somewhere, some amongst us appear to have gotten complacent in our experienced old age ?

Shame on you guys. I bet every one of you could arm chair quarterback the errors in doing so in the event of a catastrophe. Man up and do the right thing here.

 

[918v]

Trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear to save a few bucks on cheapo bullets is a bad habit to get started.

Seating deeper and crimping over the shoulder is not "trying to make a silk purse srom a sow's ear." It is a common, proven, and accepted reloading practice. It has been done with .45 Colt bullets for 140+ years.

Maybe after you have some solid experience under your belt and can miraculously predict non-linear acceleration rates of smokeless powder on the fly, but until then, do you feel better going with just a hope or are you going all out and be relying upon a prayer as well ?

Seating deeper and using .38 Special data is absolutely safe.

You might get lucky, but, I would really hope the plating on those bullets is perfectly uniform, all the brass you are using is the same headstamp with the same internal capacity and you were using a powder that will allow reduction into uncharted territory without causing a detonation, squib or stripping the plating bullet when it jumps the gap into the forcing cone.

He's not trying to assemble a nuclear weapon. There is no load reduction issue with 99% of powders relevant to what the OP wants to do.

Stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[Hondo 60]

Hodgdon's load data on their website doesn't even specify.

Actually, it does!
I've learned how to get that info by reading rcmodel's posts.

Select caliber & bullet & powder.

Then click on the "print" button.
Close the printers box & a small box will remain with the info you want.

 

[Walkalong]

Or

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load_print.asp?printnow=1

 

[Eb1]

2) Some manuals call for a Magnum primer for .357mag. Others call for a standard SP primer. I have 200 WSPMs. Hodgdon's load data on their website doesn't even specify. What should I use?

E-mail yourself the data from Hodgdon. It will show you the case and primer information.

 

[gamestalker]

I interchange Winchester and CCI with no issues at all. I prefer CCI's, but not for any reason relative to performance, it's a seating thing.

As for magnum primers v.s. standard primers, I identify the application through comparing data sources. Most reloading sources I've ever looked at will identify these aspects in the preface, or next to the load table of a given powder. Some books will use a symbol, bold print, or some other means of identifying which type of primer to use. And also check more than one published data source. And if I can only find one source that states a magnum or standard primer was used, then I use a that primer. This is primarily due to the fact that powders requiring a magnum primer will always state such, at least in my experience.

Those bullets without a canelure can't be loaded to more than just light target loads. I've learned that revolver cartridges will indeed produce bullet jump issues, with loads from mid level and up, which means a firm roll crimp is necessary to keep that bullet in the case mouth. So you'll be just fine as long as you don't load anything that is typical of a standard .357 mag. performance level. The best way to determine if you are encountering a problem with "jump" is to load the cylinder up, and then after each round you discharge, open the cylinder and check the remaining cartridges for any bullet jump, or increase in OAL. If you experience any change in OAL, then you'll need to either change to a different powder, or reduce your charge until the problem goes away. However, make sure you don't reduce the charge to below the published minimum with that powder, or squibs may begin to become a problem.
OAL in revolvers is pretty straight forward with canelured bullets, seat to the canelure and crimp. But for those without a canelure, I would try my best to get that information from the manufacturer. If you can't locate that data, then proceed by using the OAL of another bullet with similar profile characteristics.

GS

 

[Jframenewbee]

No trying to save a buck or scrimp here at all. I'm new to revolvers and the wide variety of bullets, techiques in developing loads. I started reloading in the 1970's so I'm not new to that..

On bottleneck rifles, I didn't have to deal with near the variables I'm seeing here, and the real issue isn't choosing to buy non-cannelure jacketed bullets.....there weren't any to buy! Still aren't for the most part.

I'm just trying to draw from of y'alls experience. Trust me, I've looked at the data and what I see for 125gr and 700X....there's isn't a lot of variation. I'm likely to load them light, shoot and check OAL on those remaining and tweak my set up to get an acceptable grip on the bullet. He's right.....this ain't nuclear weapons technology.

Have a good day all.....off to work.

J

 

[murf]

jframe,

the 38 special/357 magnum die sets are going to give lousy case tension. crimping over the shoulder is a good suggestion (seat and crimp in separate steps).

you can try setting the crimp to just straighten the case mouth bell (bullet seated so side is crimped), but unless all your cases are the same length, variations will occur (not good).

a chronograph would help here.

luck,

murf

 

[Jframenewbee]

Murf,

Sounds like a good suggestion. I was wondering this morning if the lengths on the new brass would be consistent, or if I'd need to trim slightly to get them the same. I'm starting with a bag of new Winchester brass, but haven't measured yet to see how they run.

A funny note along the same line....I have a Forster trimmer and I can't even find a .38 cal pilot for it. Figure I'll make one while I'm waiting on bullets.

Thanks....J

 

[FROGO207]

I do not remember ever trimming a 38 SPL or 357 casing. Some do but I never have felt the need. I get good results with crimp and seat in one operation as well but I just shoot mostly low pressure target loads with Missouri Bullet SWC or WC bullets using Lee dies and mixed brass. FWIW some of my brass has been used so much that the head stamps have been peened off an can no longer be read. YMMV

 

[Jframenewbee]

Frog,

Hell, I was just anticipating having to trim them after a few times reloading them.

If I don't have to, I'm better than good.

J

 

[Walkalong]

For low pressure .38 or .357 plinking/target type loads you can trim once and forget it.

Or like some folks do, not trim at all. Thing is, if you are using mixed cases, the lengths can be quite varied, so I like to trim them in the beginning. If you buy a batch of 500 Starline brass there would be no need to trim at all, as they are very consistent in length. I have 7 or 8 hundred .38 Spl cases I am using right now and every one came from the range. Same for .357. Thank you non reloaders.