Newbie question: against animals; JHP or FMJ?

[Telesway]

When it comes to handguns that is. Think of a gun you'd want to take along when you go jogging/running so it'd be against both, animals and men. What works better? I'm actually thinking more about animals since a 9mm FMJ does the job well enough for men but what about animals? Don't ask me about terrain and area but I wager it would be around Vermont and the local mountains (dunno what wildlife dwells therein).

Anyway, I've gathered FMJ actually penetrates better so thinking of a thicker animal skull would a FMJ round work better than a JHP?

 

[mpmarty]

Since you feel 9mm fmj is adequate as a man stopper, a .22 derringer is probably enough for you. Seriously, the 9mm fmj is among the poorest choices available. The development of jhp projectiles has become a science and to ignore these developments is not wise. In your case, many people choose the 10mm as a trail gun for defense against both two and four legged agressors. Bullet weight for critters you might meet in Vermont would probably be in the 135 to 165 grain range with the 200 grain reserved for larger western game.

 

[bhk]

Soft or hollow points. In most states, the use of FMJ ammo is considered inhumane enough on animals to be outlawed when hunting. That ought be be a hint about its effectiveness. In regular self-defense situations, hollow points are considered much more effective than FMJ (although there may be some debate with the smallest calibers like .25 and .380_

 

[Todd A]

In Vermont the largest game to worry about is Black Bear. Unless you tick-off a Moose, yes they do get angry at times and can easily hurt you.

Forget a head shot on either. If you are going to stick with a 9mm use 147gr hollow points and aim for heart/lung area. Shoot to slide lock then run. Don't worry about a reload,you won't have time.

 

[moooose102]

with a 9mm, dittto what todd said! 9mm isnt much against any larger game. you are more likely to make it mad. even my 45 isnt much against a bear. especially if it is already coming after you. if you want SERIOUS bear protection, either a 30-06 rifle, or a 500 S&W revolver.

 

[Sinixstar]

Really - if you're worried about bears - unless you're carrying a hand-cannon around (and more importantly can get off multiple accurate shots with it very very quickly) - bear spray is probably your best bet.
Bears are like any other animal - you can shoot 'em, and they'll still keep going for a bit. If they're within 30 feet, even if you shoot - if it's charging, you're probably going to get attacked regardless. Bear spray is much more useful a deterrent in those situations then a handgun, or in some cases even a rifle.
Bear spray might not KILL the bear - but it will stop it in it's tracks, and make it think twice before charging again.

For the most part - bears really don't want anything to do with people - unless you're carrying food that it can smell. I've come in contact with a few bears - and for the most part, they're just not interested in people.

 

[ColinthePilot]

The effectiveness of 9mm JHP against 2-legged critters is well established. Get some high quality self defense ammo, and practice with it a few times. Its pricey, but you don't want the first time you shoot your carry ammo to be the time you need to.

As far as 4 legged critters, a friend of mine found out the hard way. His very first time hunting was in college. Took his Turkish Mauser out on a friend's land for Doe season in WV. He had run out to the store last minute for some 8mm Mauser and didn't look at the box the clerk gave him till he got out to the hunting area. It was hollowpoint. Being his first time and all, he shrugged it off, loaded the rifle and soon enough a doe comes strollin across the field and he takes his shot. Pink spray, deer goes down. He inspected his kill and found he had destroyed the deer. none of it was usable. Total waste of a deer. He learned his lesson.

The lesson for YOU is JHP will mess up critters. You want JHP for defense, Softpoint or FMJ for hunting.

 

[Oddbod]

The lesson for YOU is JHP will mess up critters. You want JHP for defense, Softpoint or FMJ for hunting.

I don't know where you get that idea from, as FMJ is NOT suitable for hunting & JHP or JSP are the norm.
JHP will no more "destroy" a deer than JSP if they both hit the same place.

 

[mapriceak]

When critters are in season here, I carry a .44 mag loaded with 300 grain cast cores. Max penetration desired....

 

[Sinixstar]

I don't know where you get that idea from, as FMJ is NOT suitable for hunting & JHP or JSP are the norm.
JHP will no more "destroy" a deer than JSP if they both hit the same place.

I think the bigger issue with the destruction there, is the fact that an 8mm was used on a deer. That's, how should I put this.... Perhaps a bit much?

The inside of the deer is evidence of that.

 

[jakemccoy]

Mountain lions have started getting bold where I am. You don't have to go out into the wilderness either to meet them. They've been making their inspection rounds in the neighborhoods. They're looking for food and don't know what "neighborhood" or "suburb" means. The morning or dusk is their preference. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[machinisttx]

I don't know where you get that idea from, as FMJ is NOT suitable for hunting

O rly? My father in law killed many deer with a 1917 in 30-06 and milsurp ball, along with various other military rifles and ball ammo.

I shot a pig with an AK and wolf HP. The bullet didn't expand, instead acting exactly like FMJ. The bullet was at full yaw(90 degrees from point forward travel) somewhere inside the chest cavity and exited the off side shoulder at full yaw. The pig ran about 20 yards before piling up dead as could be.



I wouldn't call FMJ the best choice, far from it in fact, but it WILL work if you put the bullet in the right place. Lots of handgun hunters use hard cast semi wadcutters, or wide flat nose type bullets. Obviously, the bullet profile is a lot different from most FMJ pistol bullets, but they don't expand, yet kill animals just fine.

 

[machinisttx]

I think the bigger issue with the destruction there, is the fact that an 8mm was used on a deer. That's, how should I put this.... Perhaps a bit much?

The inside of the deer is evidence of that.

Might I suggest that an incorrect bullet was used for the application? I can load a 110 grain Sierra hollowpoint in 308 ammo, but that doesn't make it a suitable bullet for deer. Same with a 125 grain bullet or a 175 grain matchking. The light for caliber bullets generally aren't made for penetration, they're made for smaller varmint type animals.

 

[Telesway]

Thanks for the info!

I'm not really thinking about camping in the wilderness e.g. that would give me the opportunity to carry a rifle. My scenario is closer to an everyday jog for which, I'd presume, folks would prefer smaller, lighter guns.

As far as the 9mm FMJ round goes, I have no idea how it fares against animals but I'm fairly certain a double tap to the chest and one to the head will stop most men. Not optimal but sufficient with decent shot placement and I really don't have a choice where I live (Europe) anyway, they don't sell JHPs to civilians, just FMJs and currently a 9mm pistol is all I got.

Just planning for the future.

 

[Dave A]

For deer destruction hunting methods check out the web site buckstix.com and then the link on hunting with an old blackpowder muzzel loading mountain howitzer cannon. The range was 125 yards loaded with 188 .69 cal lead balls, only hit the deer six times.

 

[bhk]

It has long been considered inhumane to use fmj on big game and it is illegel in most, if not all states.

Bullet choice is always a major consideration when purchasing cartridges for deer hunting. Most hollow points do open too quickly and can cause the problems noted by the above poster. They are best left for varmints. Almost all medium game bullets are soft-points of some type that are designed for some type of controlled expansion. The big game bullet market is highly competitive, with new designs and technologies coming along all the time (polymer tips for quick openning on bullets that hold together, for example). If you are going to hunt big/medium game, do it humanely and right - don't count on luck.

 

[expvideo]

9mm FMJ is not effective against people or animals, and it is dangerous for you to be carrying that. There is a reason that FMJ is labelled "practice/target ammo", and JHP is labelled "personal defense ammo". If you are using FMJ for self defense, you are misusing it and that WILL be used against you in court, if you shoot someone and the bullet over-penetrates and hits someone else.

Ammunition is dangerous, please don't use it against the manufacturer's recommendations. If the manufacturer intended for you to use it for self defense, it would be labelled that way. FMJ over-penetrates and is dangerous to be using anywhere but the range.

 

[athensguy]

I read an article a few weeks back that put the effectiveness of firearms (didn't split out handguns and rifles) vs. bears in the 60s and said that bear spray if deployed correctly was around 97% effective. Effective being prevented a mauling.

 

[Pilot]

Can you reload lead cast bullets where you are located? If JHP isn't an option, this may be better.

 

[Oddbod]

9mm FMJ is not effective against people or animals, and it is dangerous for you to be carrying that. There is a reason that FMJ is labelled "practice/target ammo", and JHP is labelled "personal defense ammo". If you are using FMJ for self defense, you are misusing it and that WILL be used against you in court, if you shoot someone and the bullet over-penetrates and hits someone else.

Ammunition is dangerous, please don't use it against the manufacturer's recommendations. If the manufacturer intended for you to use it for self defense, it would be labelled that way. FMJ over-penetrates and is dangerous to be using anywhere but the range.

Seemed pretty effective to me when it was the only thing we were allowed to use.
I wouldn't want to rely on expanding bullets at handgun velocities against something thick skinned, as penetration is going to be much less than in their intended target.

The ammunition manufacturers ARE going to push for people to buy "premium" defensive ammunition, because they make a damn sight more profit from it.