Newbie to knives, school me on blade metals

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UKWildcatFan

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I'm looking for a classy camping 6" blade for utility, wood processing, etc. I'm looking at the ESEE-6. How's the quality of that metal? I'm sure it's all what you spend you get in quality, but please school me on what level metal quality I could get for $150-175. A rundown of the hierarchy of metals would be great, with uses for them as they go up in quality would be awesome. Thanks. I'm new to this knife stuff.
 
The ESSE-6 would be a good choice.

The 1095 carbon steel will take and hold a good edge, and be relatively easy to sharpen when necessary.

The new exotic knife steels will hold an edge longer, because they are much more abrasion resistant.

But you may find it impossible to sharpen them with common systems once they do get dull.

You could easily spend more on diamond stones, hones, and sharpening systems then the knife cost.

rc
 
The steel is only part of what determines performance.

Materials, processing and geometry are the 3 equally important legs supporting performance.

Heat treat the "best" steel improperly and put the wrong edge geometry on it and it won't compare to a simpler steel (like 1095) that has good heat treat and edge geometry in use.

You should look at actual performance of a knife in the role you want instead drinking the Kool Aid about steel or magic processing or wizarding edges too quickly.

I watched a hand made super steel cryo treated camp knife fail in a side by side with a factory 1095. Of course the foolish challenge had been made that the hand made super steel knife could be battoned through a railroad spike. The handmade went PING! The crowd of onlookers gasped. The railroad spike did have a notch in it. OTOH, the 1095 Becker didn't make the dreaded PING! sound and after half a dozen heavy handed strikes on the spine a slight rolling of the edge was noticed and the railroad spike was visibly notched (I dressed the edge of the BKT with a small diamond hone I keep in my wallet and it was back to using sharp). OTOH, I've seen Ray Ennis' Entrek knives of 440C perform like tough old 1095 in field use (got BKTs and Entreks and a bunch of others) so heat treat has played a huge role for Ray in making "chippy" 440C withstand impact.

So, yes, steel matters and crappy steel isn't easy to heat treat and give a good geometry and hold up to use. Just decide what the role is and then look/ask for specific knife info.
 
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There are so many types of steels, and everyone seems to have a favorite. VERY confusing! :cool:

My answer is simplistic: Any knife, of whatever size, from a major manufacturer, will have steel that is adequate to the task, even if it is from an offshore source. The majors need to offer quality...their reputation is at stake...and most do offer excellent quality knives, from whatever source.
Just be sure you can sharpen it properly, at whatever interval that suits your use, and don't abuse it, like so many of the Bushcraft "experts" do, or try to cut the tops off 55 gallon oil drums, like KaBar users during the Korean unpleasantness did.

My recommendation would be the Buck 119, or KaBar...tough knives, reasonable price, plenty heavy duty. You need something bigger? Invest in a machete or axe...No GEE WHIZ factor, and I don't know that a Sebenza could do a better job than the good old Buck folding 110, but, that's just me. If you want it, and can afford it, then by all means, go for it!:)
 
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ESEE products are generally outstanding values, with solid workmanship, good materials, and good geometry considering the price. IIRC the 6 uses 1095 steel. This carbon steel is old technology, but tried and true. With a good heat treatment, it is very tough, easy to sharpen, and tends to hold a reasonably decent edge.

There are other steels that are tougher and/or hold an edge longer, but 1095 is a very hard steel to beat if you are looking for something solid at a reasonable price.

If you want to shop around to see what some other makers have, Ontario, Becker, and Condor may also be worth checking out. Like ESEE, they have offerings that hit a very nice sweet spot of performance vs. price.

Additionally, you can sometimes find customs at a price more affordable than you may think. IMO, when this 1095 carbon steel is used by custom Knifemakers that are very skilled at the heat treatment and have mastered edge geometry, it will outperform many of the factory fixed blades made in much pricier steels (the geometry of the blade plays just as great a role here as the steel.)



and I don't know that a Sebenza could do a better job than the good old Buck folding 110, but, that's just me. If you want it, and can afford it, then by all means, go for it!:)
Nothing wrong with the Buck 110...it's a legend in its own respect. However, you can do a lot more with a Sebenza than you can with a 110, and it in many cases it will do a better job at certain tasks. The Sebenza has gained popularity for quite a few reasons, but at the end of the day it is a performance knife that can be used for everything from thin slicing a tomato to batoning a piece of firewood to cutting metal. In my opinion most folders can't multi-task such a wide range as most are either geared more toward general-use or heavier use. Now if it justifies the price or not I reckon the answer falls upon the individual, but IMO you can do more with a Seb and IMO it can do a better job.
 
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So, as I sit here actually fondling an Esee knife take this with a grain of salt, they are not my favorite knives for camp because the handles aren't that comfortable. When the new Camp-Lore DC-6 comes out that would be pretty good. The heat treat at Rowen is pretty damned good too, I am a huge fan of how they handle the 1095.

As far as ergonomics go though, there are lots better knives in the 6" blade range for camp. I am a huge fan of the Becker line of Ka-Bars for ergonomics and value. For slightly more check out Bark River knives. The ergonomics are almost as good as Beckers but they also use slightly more "super" steels and they usually come with leather instead of nylon sheaths.
 
I guess I missed 4th "leg" to the knife equation - ergonomics.

The ESE handles aren't that comfortable in extended us. There are other knives like the ones pointed out that have better handles to use and that makes a huge difference in how much work you can do with a knife. I agree with John that Browning Crowell/Barker is a great looking knife based on a real competition knife so the ergonomics on it should be outstanding.
 
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The "super duper". secret steels are a lot of bunk in my book!
D-2, a WWI era die steel is an excellent choice for a knife steel but the average guy might have trouble sharpening the knife.
A knife made from a 1095 derivative (O-1) is really all the knife most guys need. Easier to sharpen with good edge retention and much more inexpensive.
 
Fan, you can get steel that will be sharp enough fairly cheaply. What you have to decide from there, is the importance of other factors like edge retention, toughness, rust resistance, and ease of resharpening.

Frequently, you trade one thing for another. In general, steels that can be hardened to higher levels, aren't as tough- in other words, if subjected to enough stress, they are more likely to break or even shatter than flex or bend. However, the hardest steels are also capable of taking the sharpest edges. Adding chrome to a steel usually increases rust resistance, but if you add too much, it's hard to put an edge on that steel.

Some steels work out to have characteristics that surprise you. 52100 and 5160 are examples. 52100 has both more chrome and more carbon than 5160. It can be heat treated to be harder than 5160, and so take a very sharp edge that can last longer. In my experience, though, 52100 rusts much more easily than 5160, despite the higher chrome content.

As others have said, many of the more modern "super steels", and even some of the tool steels, can be hard to sharpen. You probably want a steel that is fairly tough, takes a good edge and holds it a reasonable amount of time, sharpens fairly easily, and has at least some rust resistance.

Good steel choices for you probably include 1070, 1085, 1095, 5160, 440C, L6, O-1, and W2. Most of these steels will rust if you don't take a few minutes and wipe a little oil on them after use, with L6 and O-1 probably being the most rust prone.
 
The "super duper". secret steels are a lot of bunk in my book!
D-2, a WWI era die steel is an excellent choice for a knife steel but the average guy might have trouble sharpening the knife.
A knife made from a 1095 derivative (O-1) is really all the knife most guys need. Easier to sharpen with good edge retention and much more inexpensive.

I would not personally call it, "bunk." 1095 is great, as is D2, but there are steels that are dramatically superior in some areas.

Is a knife in a "super steel" worth it? I carry a folder with a M390 blade on it with a super thin edge. This edge is so thin that most other steels would roll or chip with the first thing I cut. Yet, despite this thin edge, compared to the identical blade in 154CM I would estimate my M390 blade holds the edge at least 4-6 times longer. So imagine how many times I would have to sharpen that blade if it were 1095?!?! For me, the price premium was justifiable because of how much it reduces sharpening, and how the M390 blade can hold a paper thin angle that most other steels don't do nearly as well. YMMV. :)
 
I would not personally call it, "bunk." 1095 is great, as is D2, but there are steels that are dramatically superior in some areas.

Is a knife in a "super steel" worth it? I carry a folder with a M390 blade on it with a super thin edge. This edge is so thin that most other steels would roll or chip with the first thing I cut. Yet, despite this thin edge, compared to the identical blade in 154CM I would estimate my M390 blade holds the edge at least 4-6 times longer. So imagine how many times I would have to sharpen that blade if it were 1095?!?! For me, the price premium was justifiable because of how much it reduces sharpening, and how the M390 blade can hold a paper thin angle that most other steels don't do nearly as well. YMMV. :)
There was a time in the not too recent past when knife metallurgy was a thoroughly plowed field. Since then, not only have steels evolved, but manufacturing/heat treating methods also.
I base my "bunk" opinion on the fact that manufactures, especially in the kitchen knife industry , try to stress the fact that " more expensive" is better.
IMHO, the average household can get by with a $ 50.00 set of knives from Uncle Wally's.
I was involved with knife development some years back and it's when I truly had my eyes opened!
Something DRAMATICALLY superior to D-2 ?
I don't think it's made it's presence known in the toolroom yet!
D-2 exells, especially when there is a punch/ die PAPER application to be ferformed!
Zeke, Journeyman Toolmaker since 1960.
 
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