NFA Flare Gun

[Dan Forrester]

So to my understanding if a shotgun receiver has never had a shoulder stock attached onto it, it can be registered as an AOW for $5. Is this true?

Here’s what I’m thinking: I have 4 large flare guns. two 37mm and two 26.5mm pistols. The one I’m primarily interested in is my Czechoslovakian 26.5mm all steel flare gun. What I’d like to do is make myself a 12ga insert for the flare gun, and register it as an AOW. Not only could I use it in either of the 26.5mm pistols, but I could also use it in the 37mm pistol with a 37mm to 26.5mm reducer.

What do you guys think?

Thanks, Dan

 

[Jim K]

I would contact BATFE about legality before doing anything. But that would be only one of my concerns. The locking system on most of those flare guns is weak and even if your adapter holds the sideways pressure, the gun's lock might not take the rearward pressure. It would be a real disappointment to do the application, pay the tax, and then have the thing let go on the first shot.

Jim

 

[Amish_Bill]

AOW Transfer tax is $5. I believe theMaking tax is still $200.

You might want to hand your item to a local friendly manufacturer, have them "make" it, then transfer it back to you.

heck - the way ATF regs work, you might find that the insert/converter itself is considered the AOW instead of the flare gun.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

What exactly are you trying to do? Get a 12G flare gun pistol, or a 12G shotgun pistol?

You can buy 12 gauge inserts with a chamber too short to fire a 12 gauge shell, those do not have to be registered as AOWs.

 

[Dan Forrester]

Jim Keenan: You might have a point about it not taking the rearward pressure. I know the Kilgore Corporation 37mm gun would easily take it. That thing could take a 10ga no sweat. The Czechoslovakian 26.5mm is built like a tank too but is definitely not as strong as the Kilgore. From looking at how it is made I wonder if it was originally designed to handle some type of antipersonnel ammunition that never made it past development. I know the Germans in WWII were working on a 26.5mm HE round for their flare guns. I definitely wouldn’t try it in my H&K 26.5 though; that is made only for flares biased on its construction.

Amish_Bill: That’s exactly what I was thinking. Registering the actual 26.5mm to 12ga shell shrinker as an AOW for $5.

SodiumBenzoate: I’m actually trying to have both. I think the idea of having a big 26.5mm flare gun that could also handle the 12ga flares, plus 12ga loads would make a nifty little survival kit. If I wanted to I could also add additional shell shrinkers to the kit, like 12ga to 20ga, or 12ga to .410, 12ga to 44mag/.357/9mm ect.

Thanks, Daniel Vaughn

 

[Al Thompson]

Not to hijack the thread, but have you got a source for the 26mm flares?

 

[Dan Forrester]

This is your best bet:

http://www.dansammo.com/ammo.asp



This has the same flares at the same price. More pictures too.

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/pricelist_flares.htm



Go to the bottom of this page it has a picture of an orange smoke being fired.

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/parts/fl/flare.htm



Dan

 

[Dan Forrester]

Up late drinking a beer. Just found this:

http://akronarmory.com/cgi-bin/stor..._Pistols_/_Flares&cart_id=6771898.5709*7g00D5

Seems like a good price.

Dan

 

[Al Thompson]

WOW! Thanks!

 

[GigaBuist]

I thought shooting a 12 gauge slug out of something with that diameter bore was a destructive device? Legally, that is.

 

[Dan Forrester]

I thought shooting a 12 gauge slug out of something with that diameter bore was a destructive device? Legally, that is.

Any pistol with an unrifled barrel fits into the AOW definition. This even includes weapons with bore diameters under .50 caliber. I’ve seen these garden guns which are designed to fire only .22 rat shot. They are nothing more than a standard .22 caliber revolver but with a smooth bore. These are considered an AOW and must be federally registered as an AOW. As ridiculous as it sounds a .22 caliber revolver with a smooth barrel is according to the NFA no different than a full auto Browning M2 .50 cal. BTW: AOWs also include pen guns, cane guns, wallet guns, flashlight guns short barreled pistol gripped shotguns and some others.

Now back to your question: If the pistol was over .50 cal and it had a rifled barrel it’s a DD ($200) like you said. If the barrel is a smooth bore it’s an AOW ($5). However a smooth bore pistol that fits under the definition of an AOW can never have a rifle stock attached to it. It would then become a DD. Basically it has to do with rifling: Big bore pistol with rifled barrel is a DD. No rifling AOW.

Dan

 

[BluesBear]

Now back to your question: If the pistol was over .50 cal and it had a rifled barrel it’s a DD ($200) like you said. If the barrel is a smooth bore it’s an AOW ($5). However a smooth bore pistol that fits under the definition of an AOW can never have a rifle stock attached to it. It would then become a DD. Basically it has to do with rifling: Big bore pistol with rifled barrel is a DD. No rifling AOW.

You have just successfully contradicted yourself.

 

[Dan Forrester]

You have just successfully contradicted yourself.

It’s certainly possible; but how so? I don’t want to give any one false information.

Thanks, Dan

 

[Dan Forrester]

Al Thompson: Before purchasing any flares call up and ask for the expiration date, and weather or not the box’s wax seals are intact or broken.

And one more thing the Orion 25mm marine flares wont work in a 26.5mm the rim is too thick and the pistol will not close.

Let me know if you buy any, and tell us how they worked.

Dan

 

[BluesBear]

However a smooth bore pistol that fits under the definition of an AOW can never have a rifle stock attached to it. It would then become a DD.

Any cartridge firing firearm with a smooth bore of less than 18" is an AOW (sawed off shotgun) stock or no stock, it doesn't matter. Even if it has an 18" barrel, if the total length is under 26" is it still only an AOW.

Example, Remington 870LE with a 14" barrel and a pistol grip is an AOW. Replacing the PG with a full stock doesn't change its NFA status.

Example, Mossberg 590 with a 14" barrel and a full stock grip is an AOW. Replacing the stock with a pistol grip doesn't change its NFA status.

Example, Rossi Coach Gun with 20" barrels cut back to 12" is an AOW and is registered as such. Cutting the sock off and recontourig it to a pistol grip doesn't change the NFA status and doesn't require any further paperwork.

 

[Zach S]

Example, Remington 870LE with a 14" barrel and a pistol grip is an AOW. Replacing the PG with a full stock doesn't change its NFA status.

I've always heard that putting a stock on it would change it from a registered AOW to an un-registered SBS, since it would then be designed to fire from the shoulder.

If you are correct, would it be safe to say that one could order an AOW like you described above, then add a full stock and save $195? That doesnt make sense to me. However I'd be more likely to figure out how a woman thinks than I would to figure out all the regs, however I cant say I trust you on this because it boils down to the goverment losing money.

 

[BluesBear]

I've always heard that ...

Did you "always" hear this from anyone who had actually owned a Title II weapon?

I have only owned 3. Which makes me only moderately ignorant.
A 12 gauge Rossi Coach Gun with 12" barrels and a pistol grip. = AOW/SBS
A selective-fire Plainfield Enforcer. Later fitted with a folding stock. = MG
An original Thompson 1927 carbine circa 1929. (11" barrel/removeable stock) = AOW/SBR
The fact that it had a fitting for a stock made it an AOW even if I hadn't had the stock for it.
(OK maybe I am more than moderately ignorant since I sold all three.) :banghead:


A Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS) IS an Any Other Weapon (AOW)
A shotgun with a total length under 26" is also an AOW.

Once an AOW always an AOW, just like once a Machine Gun always a Machine Gun.

I went through all of this with F-troop 25 years ago with my Rossi. It had a really nice honey colored stock & fore end. I couldn't bring myself to cut it down so I bought a used stock that someone had already cut down for a kid and converted that to a pistol grip. ATF informed me that it didn't matter which stock was on it, it was a SBS/AOW either way.

Same with putting a folding stock on my Full-Auto Enforcer. F-troop don't care if you got a stock on your machine gun or not.


Now you may have a state law to the contrary but I am just referring to federal laws.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

Its only $5 to transfer an AOW vs the $200 for other Class 3 stuff. But you still have to pay the $200 to put any existing weapon into AOW config, or to make one. You just dont have to keep paying the $200 tax to tranfer it, only a $5 AOW tax.

This is why .22 LR pen guns cost so much.

 

[RyanM]

So to my understanding if a shotgun receiver has never had a shoulder stock attached onto it, it can be registered as an AOW for $5. Is this true?

Not exactly. I know this doesn't apply to your flare guns, but in the case of a shotgun, it must also must be declared as a "pistol" on the first 4473 that is ever filled out for it (and every subsequent one), much like an AR-15 pistol. Which can take some fast talking to convince the gun store employee that a PGO shotgun can be legally declared as a pistol. And, as mentioned, initial registration of an AOW is $200, unless you are a Class 2 SOT.

For a flare gun... I believe you would need to register your flare gun receiver as an AOW, not the adapter itself.

I also really doubt that even an all-steel milsurp flare gun would stand up to 12 ga. recoil for more than a half-dozen shots.

I would suggest getting a 26.5mm to 12 gauge flare adapter, and then a rifled barrel 12 gauge to pistol caliber adapter (personally, I would not use any caliber more powerful than .38 SPL +P). And you should have the 12 gauge to .38 SPL adapter made or modified so that it will only fit 12 ga. flare chambers. Then you can use standard 26.5mm to 12 ga flare adapters (no "constructive intent" for possessing a 26.5mm to a 12 ga shotshell adapter). Rifled barrel and no stock = no paperwork required, as it's a normal pistol. You are permitted to manufacture as many non-NFA firearms as you like, so long as they are only for personal use (and as long as you can legally own a firearm, of course).

Those two adapters would basically let you legally shoot .38s in any 26.5mm or 12 ga. flare gun you like ("manufacturing" a firearm each time), though .38 recoil will destroy a plastic 12 ga. one in relatively short order.

Or if you just really, really like the idea of a "hillbilly dueling pistol," buy a cheap NEF or H&R single shot, register as an SBS, engrave, then go to town with the cutting tools of your choice. At least that way you know the receiver and barrel can take the stress of firing any ammo you dare to drop the hammer on. And a used single-shot runs about the same price as a flare gun.

A registered, chopped single shot 12 ga is probably the way to go. Weaponized flare guns would tend to have strong neo-nazi associations in a lot of places, while a chopped H&R would only make you look like a hick.