NICS Wait Time

[Bubbles]

Dogtown....Just checking here....The law dealing with information included on a 4473 by a dealer is 18USC922(m). There is a "KNOWING" requirement as an element of proof of a violation. That means that ATF would have to prove that any false or inaccurate information entered was done so "KNOWINGLY". It isn't just an automatic assumption, it has to be proven. The penalty for violating 18USC922(m) is found in 18 USC 924(a)(3)(A) and (B) and is "imprisonment for not more than one year". "Not more than one year" makes it a misdemeanor.

During your interview when getting an FFL the IOI goes over a lot of information with you in great detail, including how to correctly fill out the 4473. The IOI has a checklist for each topic covered, you check each one off and sign that form stating that you were educated and understand the federal laws. You get a copy of that form and so does the IOI.

So, ATF can consider any paperwork screw-up "willful" as you were informed even before the license was issued that you knew and understood the laws, and you agreed to follow them, and the ATF has your signature on a document backing it up.

 

[NavyLCDR]

No, the courts have backed up the ATF view that an error or ommission is a WILLFUL act.....WILLFULL pretty much covers the "knowing" part.

The issue is that the Federal regulations, FBI and ATF guidelines all state that recording the MDI date is optional, not required. So I guess if you can be convicted of a felony for not completing a block that is optional, then the buyer could also be convicted for not completing the optional social security number block when they sign the form saying their information is also COMPLETE and accurate.

 

[Donut Destroyer]

I see your point Bubbles, I just don't think that a misdemeanor record keeping violation will generate anything more than a finding and a warning unless the problems are glaring and chronic. Especially with the shortage of IOI's. Not exactly an efficient use of resources. Of course we are talking about the government and strange things do happen.

 

[Donut Destroyer]

If anyone is still reading this, just an update. After a nice chat with a supervisor at the NICS Customer Service Center I found that the MDI date given by NICS is the soonest date that a gun can be transferred without a proceed disposition. They do use the three business day rule but is was pointed out that a number of factors may affect this date. The weekend issue and holidays mainly. AND the holidays are included for any state where there may be a question on the criminal history. If there are issues in more than one state to check, all of the states holidays will be factored in. Without the NTN for the transaction Dogtown brought up, there is no way to tell for sure but that may be a reason for going more than the usual 3 days. Saturday is not counted as a delay day, but if Friday is the last day the gun can be transferred on a Saturday. SO, whatever date is given by NICS as the MDI date is the soonest the gun can be transferred. Hope to have an answer about mandatory vs optional for the MDI on the 4473 soon and will post but it appears to be optional.

 

[LevelHead]

I purchased a handgun in NJ on Wednesday of last week. Today is Monday of the following week and I have no gun.

All NICS must be faxed in here since this latest nonsense began. So they waited until the next morning to FAX it in. So I called today and it's not in yet. They then told me that they never get replies on Saturday since the FAX rule started. Now NICS is available on Saturday (but not Sunday), but I guess the NJSP decided that they would only take FAXex in and not send replies. So I'm still waiting.

Did I mention that this is all after waiting 90 days for a permission slip from the chief which involved references, mental and background checks?

 

[Fliefishing]

Still waiting in NJ

Paid for my AR. 10 days and counting in NJ. Still waiting for state to call back. Went to Delaware last Monday. Walked into the store at 0920, walked out with my shotgun at 0930.

Makes me realize how screwed up the system in NJ is. It is wonder that gun dealers can even make a living in this state. I would love for my money to stay local and support local business but until this situation changes, my future firearms purchases will be made out of state.

Maybe it is time to remove the NJSP as POC for NICS in NJ? Anybody have any political connections so we can get this started?

One last note. It only took five weeks and another $18.00 to change the address on my FID card. I moved across the street.

 

[heeler]

Well by tomorrow I will know if the guy was just delayed or was truely denied.
Fwiw he did his CHL class Saturday.
But if he was denied instead of delayed what a waste of 10 hours class time and $100.
Will let you know today or tomorrow.

 

[Bubbles]

The weekend issue and holidays mainly. AND the holidays are included for any state where there may be a question on the criminal history. If there are issues in more than one state to check, all of the states holidays will be factored in.

Interesting, I was unaware that a holiday for a state other than mine could affect the potential transfer date.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Interesting, I was unaware that a holiday for a state other than mine could affect the potential transfer date.

It kind of makes sense, and especially with all the furloughs happening because of budget cuts....

As a military member I have resided in no less than 5 different states. Let's say I am buying a gun in Washington and an assault conviction comes up from Oklahoma, one of my previous states of residence. Oklahoma state offices might be closed on a Friday or Monday for a state holiday or government furlough when Washington offices are open, and NICS may want to verify the assault conviction was not domestic violence related.

Which still leaves the question open, however, if the MDI date is optional to record by the FFL (and there are several documents which state that it is optional) how can the FFL in Washington be held in violation of the law if they transfer the gun after 3 full business days have elapsed during which their own state offices were open? If the government wants to enforce the MDI date as a legal requirement, then they need to change the Federal laws and regulations, IMHO.

 

[Donut Destroyer]

And as promised...according to the ATF Brady Operations Center, recording the MDI date on the 4473 by the FFL is optional. And in response to your concern Navy, since the MDI date is given to the FFL by NICS, and that date is the soonest the gun can be transferred without resolution, then that is the date the FFL must adhere to. Even though it may not be on the form, the NTN generated with the check will reflect the MDI date and that can be compared with the date of transfer, so the MDI date SHOULD be (not must be) put on the 4473 so that anyone handling the transfer is informed. Another one of those "you don't have to, but it would be wise" issues I think.

 

[Donut Destroyer]

Bubbles (and Dogtown if you're still reading), I was talking to an ATF IOI that I know today regarding the "knowing" violation and he said that they don't consider a paperwork error to be "willing" or "knowing" until they have examined records and pointed out deficiencies or errors and then found the same problems at a follow up inspection. Just having things explained when you get your license doesn't necessarily qualify since the forms change and required information comes and goes. Obviously if the matter is an obviously fraudulent entry that's a different story. I don't think that is any regulation, but it's how the inspectors view it.

 

[dogtown tom]

Donut Destroyer Bubbles (and Dogtown if you're still reading), I was talking to an ATF IOI that I know today regarding the "knowing" violation and he said that they don't consider a paperwork error to be "willing" or "knowing" until they have examined records and pointed out deficiencies or errors and then found the same problems at a follow up inspection. Just having things explained when you get your license doesn't necessarily qualify since the forms change and required information comes and goes. Obviously if the matter is an obviously fraudulent entry that's a different story. I don't think that is any regulation, but it's how the inspectors view it.

While I don't doubt what you say your IOI told you, all THREE IOI's that I've dealt with have all said even a single violation may be considered as "willfull", and be cause for revocation of my FFL.

And the NSSF (firearms industry trade group) has this nice little writeup:
http://nssf.org/retailers/PDF/SB_SweatTheDetails.pdf

 

[LevelHead]

Tomorrow it will be a week. Just three weeks ago it was three days. Things are getting far, far worse here in NJ.

 

[Donut Destroyer]

No problem Dogtown. I'm not an FFL and you are so the more careful you are, the better off you are. They certainly can't ding you for having too much information, at least they shouldn't. And I'm sure that there are inspectors just looking for reasons to write up people. Every job has its over zealous workers.

 

[heeler]

He picked up the Beretta yesterday.
I suppose the very commonality of his first and last name was the reason for the delay.
Strange to me as every Nics that has been ran on me was a very short phone conversation between who ever they are and the ffl.
Glad the guy was not denied and I am sure his wife is a good bit happier her husband does not have some secret past she was unaware off.

 

[Ryanxia]

I couldn't imagine going through all that to buy a gun. I won't even go to some local gunshops because they take a couple hours to go through NICS while my main shop takes about 5 minutes pistol or rifle.