Night sights. What's the use?
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Phil DeGraves
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We may be in agreement in principle and only in disagreement in semantics. I would call what you just described sighted fire.
pbearperry
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My bedstand gun has a good friend called the bedstand flashlight.
tipoc
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Or what others have called "flash sight picture" aiming. Many folks who speak of point shooting are actually thinking of flash sight aiming. That is where you, very rapidly, index off the front sight or even the barrel as you point the gun at the target. A fella can see this "picture" from their peripheral vision while the gun is just at or above waist level. You see the barrel and front sight aligned on the target and you shoot. It isn't aimed fire in the traditional sense but it does mean you use your vision to index the gun on target. Which is close to how quail shooters do it, by the way. It's also how ol' Fairbain and Sykes taught it and called it point shooting.
Decades back the FBI tried for several years or so to teach true point shooting to it's agents. The FBI crouch was standard. A fella would crouch a bit, draw and fire from the hip or by punching the gun out in front of them at waist height. They were taught to look at the target and not the gun. They were also taught that this worked for out to 25 yards or so. They abandoned it when they found it did not work except at very close ranges. Beyond 6 or 7 yards sighted fire is best. As I described above there are different types of sighted fire.
Like I said before a lot of folks create a false dichotomy between "point shooting" and aimed fire. This is too bad as they dismiss the latter or sometimes the former.
Try this experiment: Whats the distance from the front of your vehicle to the rear? What's the distance from the rear bumper of your vehicle to the front bumper of the vehicle parked in front of yours? What's the distance from one side of your home to the other? From your front door to the middle of the street in front of your home? Now the next question may throw off those fellas who only envision self defense scenarios that occur in their homes but consider the distance from in the parking lots of your favorite restaurant or church? In any of these if you had to aim a gun at someone would you like to see your sights in the dark?
tipoc
We are, I think.
Yes, it's sighted fire. "Point shooting" is sighted, but it's different from "aimed fire". "Hip shooting" is not sighted.With a pistol, like with a quail gun, you can practice using your whole upper body so that when you look at a target and bring the gun up, it will already be pointed at the target. Your eyes are useful, of course, but your gun feels more like an extension of your arm.
That is point shooting. You point the gun at something like pointing your finger at something at eye level, and when you see the gun intersect the target, you fire.
Hip shooting is something different.
That's what I meant when I said that "point shooting" is widely misunderstood.
"Snap shooting" is similar, it just involves a quicker shot, and less visual verification, though it's still at eye level.
"Hip shooting" is when you aren't using the sights. Some people can do it very well, e.g. CFDA competitors (http://www.cowboyfastdraw.com/). It takes a lot more practice, it's not particularly accurate, and it's a close-range-only proposition. It is not the same as "point shooting".
The differences can be subtle; I didn't "get it" until I learned to shoot... quail.
This is of interest: some shotgunners don't even like having a bead on their guns. But they still use their eyes to hit the target.
Phil DeGraves
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Good, we are in agreement. What tipoc said: Flash sight picture is what I do, which I always considered sighted fire.
NO -- point-shooting can work for all people. I have not had a single student go through my 15 week course that has not mastered the skill well enough to graduate. From 60 year old grandmothers ...........to young mothers with small children .....all have passed the NO MISS 120 round close combat test. A test I might add that very few LEO's can pass, their first time through. Some students have had to take the test a second time in order to pass, as my STRICT NO MISS scoring is never waved. These students miss by usually one bullet ....... still inside the target, but not in the manditory center mass or head shot area.
Common misconception ....... the master of point shooting D.R Middlebrooks can hit a man-sized target out to 75 yards with NO sights on his 1911. He has video on his website showing how this is done. TIPOC is very correct ...... the term point-shooting has many names -- Middlebrooks uses "Fist-Fire" which is his unique style of point-shooting.
The limiting distance I put on my students are there to teach ESCAPE - past a certain distance one should be looking to escape the situation - not get into long range gun battles with an attacker. Avoidence & Escape are very important principles that are taught in a comprehensive self-defense Course.
No physical way can a person be faster bringing his weapon up to eye level while trying to align 3 small dots ....... while a point shooter begins shooting almost immediately after his/her gun clears the CCW holster, having no need to try an align pistol sights. Situational awareness is much better in the person skilled in the art of point shooting ....... as his/her attention is 100% on the target and NOT the weapon !!
Not trying to change anyones method of self-defense - use what works for you !! ............ just trying to clear up some common mistakes made about point-shooting and what it can accomplish.
JF.
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AK103K
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The flash issue depends on if what your shooting really has any, or enough to worry about.
I shoot 357SIG's, which are "supposed" to be very flashy, (mine never have been), and I've never had any issues with seeing the dots after the first, or subsequent shots.
Maybe if your using fast powder reloads, in a short barreled gun, its a different story. Its been my experience that most of the self defense type ammos out there are pretty low (if any) flash.
Maybe the targets arent in color.
I shoot 357SIG's, which are "supposed" to be very flashy, (mine never have been), and I've never had any issues with seeing the dots after the first, or subsequent shots.
Maybe if your using fast powder reloads, in a short barreled gun, its a different story. Its been my experience that most of the self defense type ammos out there are pretty low (if any) flash.
Well, sort of. My dots look green to me in the dark, and the dots in my Aimpoints are still red.
Maybe the targets arent in color.
AK103K
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Your right about the revolvers, I have a few too, and they can be pretty flashy, especially the short barreled magnums.
I dont normally associate night sights with revolvers myself, although, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have them on their wheel guns.
I dont normally associate night sights with revolvers myself, although, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have them on their wheel guns.
Kayback
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I've got this new fangled thing on my gun that throws this handy red dot out and it works best in pretty much exactly the light conditions you are talking about.
I also have night sights on my gun. They are fanTASTIC for finding said weapon in the dark. They might help if the laser fails.
I also have pretty good point shooting skillz. Not mad 75m skillz, inside a room and rapid fire to the chest skillz.
I also have a nice bright torch on my table next to my gun.
Personally I think Night Sights are over rated, but I am waiting on new Tritium tubes for my sights.
It is 1 in the morning here so gimme a break for these pics.
My store room. Darkest room in the house.
My night sights.
My Lazors
Which one is more useful????
I also have night sights on my gun. They are fanTASTIC for finding said weapon in the dark. They might help if the laser fails.
I also have pretty good point shooting skillz. Not mad 75m skillz, inside a room and rapid fire to the chest skillz.
I also have a nice bright torch on my table next to my gun.
Personally I think Night Sights are over rated, but I am waiting on new Tritium tubes for my sights.
It is 1 in the morning here so gimme a break for these pics.
My store room. Darkest room in the house.
My night sights.
My Lazors
Which one is more useful????
stevereno1
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"night sights" should be referred to as "low-light sights" The do help me locate my pistol in the dark though.
green country shooter
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At the Oklahoma IDPA championship we had a low light stage in a shoot house. I could see the targets fine, but could not see my sights at all. (I have fiber optics on the handgun I was using.) Night sights would have been nice. I got through it by basically using muscle memory - aligining the slide, which I could sort of see. I could have done much better with night sights.
Here's a hypothetical: you are in a very dark room. The hallway outside is in low light. You hear someone say "I'm going to kill you" and you see them outside the room. You still can't see your sights.
Nights sights have their uses, but obviously they won't solve every problem or work in every situation. Sometimes it seems as if people think that if a tool isn't good for every situation you shouldn't have it at all.
Here's a hypothetical: you are in a very dark room. The hallway outside is in low light. You hear someone say "I'm going to kill you" and you see them outside the room. You still can't see your sights.
Nights sights have their uses, but obviously they won't solve every problem or work in every situation. Sometimes it seems as if people think that if a tool isn't good for every situation you shouldn't have it at all.
kcshooter
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Sniper350, what's the point? I guarantee I can get off rounds just as fast using a flash sight picture vs hip shooting, and I bet there's a MUCH lower risk of my letting one go wild and hitting an unintended target. Your 15 week course would never serve any purpose to me. I could learn a lot more than one semi-useful-in-certain-circumstances method in this time. I've outshot more than one person who was a hip-shooting advocate. Speeds are generally the same, but my hits are always more accurate.
Night sights are great. A lot of people claim if you need night sights, you can't identify the target. Not true. My world isn't perfectly well lit or completely pitch black, I have things like dusk, dawn, evening, poorly lit streets at night, ambient light, all of which would make it tough to line up flat black sights or even white dots ones vs night sights. Can it be done with out them? Sure, but its easier with night sights and I'm looking to have every advantage I can.
Night sights are great. A lot of people claim if you need night sights, you can't identify the target. Not true. My world isn't perfectly well lit or completely pitch black, I have things like dusk, dawn, evening, poorly lit streets at night, ambient light, all of which would make it tough to line up flat black sights or even white dots ones vs night sights. Can it be done with out them? Sure, but its easier with night sights and I'm looking to have every advantage I can.
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mgkdrgn
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Here are some thoughts on the subject:
http://www.frontsight.com/newsletter/html/24-night-sights.html
http://www.frontsight.com/newsletter/html/24-night-sights.html
Phil DeGraves
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+1 on that.
loop
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This thread is degenerating.
Point shooting, flash shooting and hip shooting are mighty different things.
Point shooting depends on a good fit of the gun to your hand. Flash shooting depends on firing when the front sight "flashes" across the target. I'm not sure what hip shooting is, but I do know how to fire from retention. It is a specific technique that is reserved for when the assailant is within physical reach of your body.
I can point shoot with any of my SD guns. It has taken much time and effort (and dollars) to make some of them so that is possible. Flash shooting is problematic. You have to see the sights and pull the trigger without losing the sight picture. It rarely works out.
Shooting from the hip should only be done when the assailant is close enough to prevent some form of aiming. The technique is relatively complex. It involves as much work from the off hand as it does the firing hand. It is a key component of proper training however, and should not be overlooked.
As to how all that pertains to night sights, it doesn't. That's my point. The thread has lost its focus.
I have two complaints about tritium night sights. In very low light they obscure your target. Most sets are of one color. It makes it very difficult to figure out which one is the front sight when the shooter is under stress.
Obscuring your target cannot be overcome unless you point shoot. If you know how to tune your gun to your hand and spend the time and money to make it happen the issue becomes irrelevant.
The color of the front sight being different from your rear sight is easy to overcome - don't buy night sights that are all one color.
My Truglos arrived yesterday. The gun they are going on was finished an hour ago. As to rebuild, it goes in for refinishing of blue and nickel on Monday. That will take two weeks.
I have no doubt the combination of fiber optic sights and tritium sights will make it a more serviceable weapon.
OTOH, I really don't think much of night sights. I've stopped more than one threat without them
Point shooting, flash shooting and hip shooting are mighty different things.
Point shooting depends on a good fit of the gun to your hand. Flash shooting depends on firing when the front sight "flashes" across the target. I'm not sure what hip shooting is, but I do know how to fire from retention. It is a specific technique that is reserved for when the assailant is within physical reach of your body.
I can point shoot with any of my SD guns. It has taken much time and effort (and dollars) to make some of them so that is possible. Flash shooting is problematic. You have to see the sights and pull the trigger without losing the sight picture. It rarely works out.
Shooting from the hip should only be done when the assailant is close enough to prevent some form of aiming. The technique is relatively complex. It involves as much work from the off hand as it does the firing hand. It is a key component of proper training however, and should not be overlooked.
As to how all that pertains to night sights, it doesn't. That's my point. The thread has lost its focus.
I have two complaints about tritium night sights. In very low light they obscure your target. Most sets are of one color. It makes it very difficult to figure out which one is the front sight when the shooter is under stress.
Obscuring your target cannot be overcome unless you point shoot. If you know how to tune your gun to your hand and spend the time and money to make it happen the issue becomes irrelevant.
The color of the front sight being different from your rear sight is easy to overcome - don't buy night sights that are all one color.
My Truglos arrived yesterday. The gun they are going on was finished an hour ago. As to rebuild, it goes in for refinishing of blue and nickel on Monday. That will take two weeks.
I have no doubt the combination of fiber optic sights and tritium sights will make it a more serviceable weapon.
OTOH, I really don't think much of night sights. I've stopped more than one threat without them
Double Naught Spy
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Ah, but we weren't talking about what you did as a kid, were we machinisttx? We were talking about defensive shooting and you argued that at handgun distances, you don't need sights at all and suggested taping up sights to prove the point. If you tape up the sights, then what you are talking about is not using the sights at all for shooting.
Of course, the nice thing about spot lighting snakes and frogs is that you don't die for not being quick enough to make aimed shots.
tipoc
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Okay so after a batch of posts we have a open debate with folks on both sides. Nothing surprising there.
In books like Ed McGivern's "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" he has a discussion of aids to shooting in low light conditions, same thing in the works of Charles Askins. Ditto for Chick Gaylord and John Bianchi's books. IIRC Bill Jordan discusses them also. As does Elmer Keith. These books and others go decades back. Their authors looked for better ways to pick up their sights in low light conditions and used what they had to do so given the technology of the time.
We could make a list of well known shooters of today who use nite sights now and again.
Like I said earlier for over 100 years some shooters have tried out new tech on their guns.
Also some didn't. So whether they are useful or not has been disputed for a long time. From the time of brass or ivory beads till today.
Night Sites don't take the place of developing your skills. Heck if I had the time and money I'd take a 15 week course to improve my "point shooting" skills. I would also still keep nite sights on a couple of my guns, this is cuz I believe they are useful and can make for more accurate and faster shooting in some dark places. They can give me a small edge that I'll take.
tipoc
In books like Ed McGivern's "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" he has a discussion of aids to shooting in low light conditions, same thing in the works of Charles Askins. Ditto for Chick Gaylord and John Bianchi's books. IIRC Bill Jordan discusses them also. As does Elmer Keith. These books and others go decades back. Their authors looked for better ways to pick up their sights in low light conditions and used what they had to do so given the technology of the time.
We could make a list of well known shooters of today who use nite sights now and again.
Like I said earlier for over 100 years some shooters have tried out new tech on their guns.
Also some didn't. So whether they are useful or not has been disputed for a long time. From the time of brass or ivory beads till today.
Night Sites don't take the place of developing your skills. Heck if I had the time and money I'd take a 15 week course to improve my "point shooting" skills. I would also still keep nite sights on a couple of my guns, this is cuz I believe they are useful and can make for more accurate and faster shooting in some dark places. They can give me a small edge that I'll take.
tipoc
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