Robbins290
Member
Can someone school me on night vision scopes? Looking to put one on my sig 556. Cant tell the difference between them. Looking at the atn mk390 paladin. Any pro's and cons?
Night vision help?
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http://www.shootingreviews.com/the-shootingreviews-night-vision-overview/
i'd pass on ATN
and i wouldn't put the device on the rifle unless it's a precision magnified optic
i'd pass on ATN
and i wouldn't put the device on the rifle unless it's a precision magnified optic
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
I have a Paladin. It works okay for a Gen 1 scope which means it has some real limitations. I use a laser illuminator to supplement it. The illuminator I use cannot be obtained anymore (imported) due to restrictions. Oh, and I plan to use it as a boat anchor when it finally dies some day. With that said, I have killed several hogs with its help as well on my AR15. I would also add that I am not impressed with ATN products. I have two of their scopes including the Paladin.
If you are getting night vision, the question then becomes one of, what for? What is your intended use? That will go a long way in helping determine what sort of option would be best suited for your needs.
If you are getting night vision, the question then becomes one of, what for? What is your intended use? That will go a long way in helping determine what sort of option would be best suited for your needs.
OP
OP
Robbins290
Member
Shooting coyotes from 50-100 yards.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
With the illuminator that comes with it, it will handle the task in open country just fine. I have a couple of suggestions for you. First, zero in the daytime with the lens cap on as they suggest. Then re-zero at night with the lens cap off. I have found that the tiny pin-hole that allows for daytime zeroing produces a bit of error and that you can likely zero better AFTER dark, or at least refine the zero.
What I found was that to see the crosshairs for daytime zeroing, the reticle had to be turned up to full. This causes reticle "bloom" where the reticle grows in size. That means the cross of the cross hairs is much less precise. So you may be a couple MOA off or so when you go to check your zero at night and you can turn the reticle brightness down to a minimal level and the reticle is then at its finest resolution.
If you buy a separate supplemental IR illuminator, you want one that is 800 nm or below. The less visible IR illuminators (to the naked eye), are above 900 or so. The Gen I scope does not read IR in that range very well. So you want an illuminator that is much closer to the visible spectrum. Regardless of the nm, the illuminators will be visible to the naked eye as a red glow if you look at them directly. The lower nm will be a brighter glow as it is closer to the visible spectrum. Neither will shine visible light more than a few feet, though the red glow may be visible from quite some distance. For coyotes, not a problem. If this was for a HD or tactical application, then it would be a problem.
Unless things have changed, the Paladin does not have an auto-shutoff. Be sure to keep a spare CR123a battery handy. The illuminator runs on one as well.
What I found was that to see the crosshairs for daytime zeroing, the reticle had to be turned up to full. This causes reticle "bloom" where the reticle grows in size. That means the cross of the cross hairs is much less precise. So you may be a couple MOA off or so when you go to check your zero at night and you can turn the reticle brightness down to a minimal level and the reticle is then at its finest resolution.
If you buy a separate supplemental IR illuminator, you want one that is 800 nm or below. The less visible IR illuminators (to the naked eye), are above 900 or so. The Gen I scope does not read IR in that range very well. So you want an illuminator that is much closer to the visible spectrum. Regardless of the nm, the illuminators will be visible to the naked eye as a red glow if you look at them directly. The lower nm will be a brighter glow as it is closer to the visible spectrum. Neither will shine visible light more than a few feet, though the red glow may be visible from quite some distance. For coyotes, not a problem. If this was for a HD or tactical application, then it would be a problem.
Unless things have changed, the Paladin does not have an auto-shutoff. Be sure to keep a spare CR123a battery handy. The illuminator runs on one as well.
OP
OP
Robbins290
Member
Thanks double naught spy, thats helps alot. Any specfic separate supplemental IR illuminator you recommend?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Sorry, no. The one I use is no longer imported...because it isn't considered eye-safe! Class 1 lasers are considered eye safe and the one I use is a higher class. The illuminator that comes with the Paladin should get you to 100 yards - beyond that if the coyote contrasts with the background, somewhat less if he blends in well.
Keep in mind that in the fairly monochromatic world of night vision, you can readily lose some of the key visual traits in spotting game, in particular, visual distinctness. An animal that blends in with its environment in the natural color world will blend in to its environment even better in the artificial monochromatic NV world. Where you will find that you may more readily be spotting game will come from movement and from the eyeshine produced by the IR illuminator.
Keep in mind that in the fairly monochromatic world of night vision, you can readily lose some of the key visual traits in spotting game, in particular, visual distinctness. An animal that blends in with its environment in the natural color world will blend in to its environment even better in the artificial monochromatic NV world. Where you will find that you may more readily be spotting game will come from movement and from the eyeshine produced by the IR illuminator.
Radagast
Member
Caveat. I an not a current night vision user. I have however spent a lot of time reading over the least few weeks about different sources, as being in Australia the US Govt. ITAR regulations make it hard to go and buy US made off the shelf products.
I believe the following to be correct, feel free to verify for yourself.
For your illumination needs:
Pulsar/Yukon are a major manufacturer of Gen1 night vision. Along with Dipol they appear to be the best of the current crop. Pulsar provide torches and lasers in the 808 (near visible)& 940 (Non visible) bandwidths.
http://www.pulsarvision.com/20-infrared-illuminators
Dipol provide lasers in the 805 & 850 bandwidths. I don't know if they have a US distributor, if they do the product is probably re-branded. I've seen Dipol advertised under several different importers house brands in Britain, Canada and Australia.
http://www.dipol.biz/en/?f=production_new
TNVC sell a long throw 805nm LED torch for $240: http://tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-torch-pro-infrared-illuminator/
Or you can buy an 850nm LED torch for $30 from Hong Kong and spend roughly the same modifying it to be a long throw:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270692654604?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Mod info here:
http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/211717-modified-led-lamping-torches/page-2
Or there is this guy in the UK producing amazing LED illuminator designs:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Marky610
A very good source of info on do it yourself Digital NV is www.nightvisionforumuk.com These guys use home modified IR torches and CCTV camera scope add ons to take game out to 150 meters or more.
As for ATN, Have a read of the night vision forum at AR15.com or at http://www.nightvisionforums.com/phpBB3/index.php. ATN have a poor rep for customer service.
American Technologies Network is apparently a Ukrainian trading company, buying from various Russian and Belorussian factories and sticking their own labels on them. I'm fairly sure their Gen 2 monoculars are made by COT, their PVS7 copies by Belomo, their 'Gen2+' Image Intensifier Tubes by Ekran, all 2nd line companies behind the Russian Dipol & Dedal for scope bodies & Katod for IITs.
Yukon/Pulsar doesn't try to hide its Eastern European origins and the Yukon & Dipol Gen 1 gear is quite popular in the UK as an add on for use behind a day scope.
Yukon Gen2 tubes appear to be low end Ekran or Melz tubes, though, so stick to their Gen 1 stuff or save for Gen III.
If you have made it this far, keep the following in mind. A powerful IR laser is not eye safe. People blink when visible light lasers are pointed at them, thus to a certain level they are considered eye safe as the blink reflex kicks in before damage is done.
The IR beam doesn't kick in the blink reflex and burnt out retinas and blindness are possible if pointed at someone.
For that reason I'm inclined to go with a powerful LED IR torch.
I believe the following to be correct, feel free to verify for yourself.
For your illumination needs:
Pulsar/Yukon are a major manufacturer of Gen1 night vision. Along with Dipol they appear to be the best of the current crop. Pulsar provide torches and lasers in the 808 (near visible)& 940 (Non visible) bandwidths.
http://www.pulsarvision.com/20-infrared-illuminators
Dipol provide lasers in the 805 & 850 bandwidths. I don't know if they have a US distributor, if they do the product is probably re-branded. I've seen Dipol advertised under several different importers house brands in Britain, Canada and Australia.
http://www.dipol.biz/en/?f=production_new
TNVC sell a long throw 805nm LED torch for $240: http://tnvc.com/shop/tnvc-torch-pro-infrared-illuminator/
Or you can buy an 850nm LED torch for $30 from Hong Kong and spend roughly the same modifying it to be a long throw:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270692654604?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Mod info here:
http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/211717-modified-led-lamping-torches/page-2
Or there is this guy in the UK producing amazing LED illuminator designs:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Marky610
A very good source of info on do it yourself Digital NV is www.nightvisionforumuk.com These guys use home modified IR torches and CCTV camera scope add ons to take game out to 150 meters or more.
As for ATN, Have a read of the night vision forum at AR15.com or at http://www.nightvisionforums.com/phpBB3/index.php. ATN have a poor rep for customer service.
American Technologies Network is apparently a Ukrainian trading company, buying from various Russian and Belorussian factories and sticking their own labels on them. I'm fairly sure their Gen 2 monoculars are made by COT, their PVS7 copies by Belomo, their 'Gen2+' Image Intensifier Tubes by Ekran, all 2nd line companies behind the Russian Dipol & Dedal for scope bodies & Katod for IITs.
Yukon/Pulsar doesn't try to hide its Eastern European origins and the Yukon & Dipol Gen 1 gear is quite popular in the UK as an add on for use behind a day scope.
Yukon Gen2 tubes appear to be low end Ekran or Melz tubes, though, so stick to their Gen 1 stuff or save for Gen III.
If you have made it this far, keep the following in mind. A powerful IR laser is not eye safe. People blink when visible light lasers are pointed at them, thus to a certain level they are considered eye safe as the blink reflex kicks in before damage is done.
The IR beam doesn't kick in the blink reflex and burnt out retinas and blindness are possible if pointed at someone.
For that reason I'm inclined to go with a powerful LED IR torch.
yep. and as long as there is a broken ATN scope sitting on the shelf in my reloading room, i'll probably continue to recommend not using ATN.
I owned the Yukon NV scope some years ago as well. the image wasn't horrible for the money (it was claimed gen3), but it was unnecessarily heavy and proved unusable since it was not QD or return to zero mount and was a PITA to zero in the day or night time.
modarmory
Member
There are a multitude of Class 1 IR Illuminators which may features and benefits:
Many of these units have an adjustable beam and/or can be weapon mounted
Surefire M1 200 yards
Surefire M720V (Flashlight & IR Illumuninator) 300 yards. This unit has a low, medium and high setting
Surefire M952V (Flashlight & Ir Illuminator)
Luna Optics LED Illuminator 300 yards - fully adjustable and weapon mountable
Luna Optics Laser Illuminator - there is different information floating around on the web. Please PM or call
LDI SPIR (new to the market) 600 mW
Night Optics makes a variety of illuminators
etc.
We have noticed the Torch Pro has a more square beam versus circular. It does have a nice flood to spot but the actual size & weight of the unit tends to turn us away.
I would pay attention to the mW rating versus the wavelength. As Double Naught Spy stated the wavelength becomes more of a factor if you are attempting to be completly passive or do not mind a red glow from your IR Illuminator
Many of these units have an adjustable beam and/or can be weapon mounted
Surefire M1 200 yards
Surefire M720V (Flashlight & IR Illumuninator) 300 yards. This unit has a low, medium and high setting
Surefire M952V (Flashlight & Ir Illuminator)
Luna Optics LED Illuminator 300 yards - fully adjustable and weapon mountable
Luna Optics Laser Illuminator - there is different information floating around on the web. Please PM or call
LDI SPIR (new to the market) 600 mW
Night Optics makes a variety of illuminators
etc.
We have noticed the Torch Pro has a more square beam versus circular. It does have a nice flood to spot but the actual size & weight of the unit tends to turn us away.
I would pay attention to the mW rating versus the wavelength. As Double Naught Spy stated the wavelength becomes more of a factor if you are attempting to be completly passive or do not mind a red glow from your IR Illuminator
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Note that the distances stipulated for the illuminators is not likely what folks would attain with a Gen I scope which is what is being stipulated by the OP and that shine range does not always directly convert to effective or identification range. With Gen II or III scopes, Pulsar's N550 or N750, then you can expect that kind of performance and in some cases, maybe even better.
And yes, my personal experience with ATN CS is that it was poor.
However, in the price range of what the OP was looking for, what would alternative options be that would be comparable or better? ATN seems to dominate the low end market and while you can find lots of information about their use, you can't find so much about other brands. So if there are other good options people know of, it would be interesting to hear more about them. Not everyone, after all, has the $$ and/or need for the higher end stuff (but I would suggest going that route if possible). So what are the better inexpensive rifle scope alternatives?
And yes, my personal experience with ATN CS is that it was poor.
However, in the price range of what the OP was looking for, what would alternative options be that would be comparable or better? ATN seems to dominate the low end market and while you can find lots of information about their use, you can't find so much about other brands. So if there are other good options people know of, it would be interesting to hear more about them. Not everyone, after all, has the $$ and/or need for the higher end stuff (but I would suggest going that route if possible). So what are the better inexpensive rifle scope alternatives?
that's a good question DNS, and i don't know because i haven't tried them all. I am optimistic about the super-cheap 'digital' NV stuff.
i've been thinking about picking up some of the cheaper stuff to do some side-by-side reviews
i've been thinking about picking up some of the cheaper stuff to do some side-by-side reviews
Radagast
Member
At the moment there are no super cheap digital rifle scopes, although there are some reasonable offerings in monoculars & bioculars.
The Pulsar 750 is around $1800, the 550 is around $1250. the Armasight Drone Pro is just over $2000, the Pulsar DFA 75 day scope adaptor just under. All are cheap compared to good Gen 2, but still expensive compared to the Gen 1 products.
The Pulsar Photon 5 x 42 should run around $600, its supposed to be sold by Sightmark in the USA. Unfortunately as of today its been put back another three months, at least for European deliveries.
The Nite Sight NS200 digital day scope adaptor is popular in Britain and will come in around the $850 mark, but requires a day scope to use.
I'm unaware of any other options in Digital that are not home brewed or bespoke from a guy who drinks too much home brew.
The Pulsar 750 is around $1800, the 550 is around $1250. the Armasight Drone Pro is just over $2000, the Pulsar DFA 75 day scope adaptor just under. All are cheap compared to good Gen 2, but still expensive compared to the Gen 1 products.
The Pulsar Photon 5 x 42 should run around $600, its supposed to be sold by Sightmark in the USA. Unfortunately as of today its been put back another three months, at least for European deliveries.
The Nite Sight NS200 digital day scope adaptor is popular in Britain and will come in around the $850 mark, but requires a day scope to use.
I'm unaware of any other options in Digital that are not home brewed or bespoke from a guy who drinks too much home brew.
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that's not a problem as i personally don't recommend NV scopes at all. head-mounted monocular or binos are a much better setup.
you can get good budget or blem gen3 pvs14s for $2000ish. you can often get used gen3 PVS7s for $1800ish. So I'd hope the digital stuff is a lot cheaper to be worth it
you can get good budget or blem gen3 pvs14s for $2000ish. you can often get used gen3 PVS7s for $1800ish. So I'd hope the digital stuff is a lot cheaper to be worth it
Radagast
Member
Meade Instruments sell the Bresser NV 5 x 50 digital monocular in Europe. On ebay they are around the $$220 mark, in England this week a grocery store is selling them for 79 pounds as a store special. With an IR torch hunters are claiming the ability to ID rabbits in the grass to 200m in full dark.
The Yukon Ranger is closer to the $500 mark, has a built in IR and is fairly popular with sky watchers.
Rolaids on youtube is an American experimenting with CCTV cameras and digital goggles for NV and rifle scopes, His vids are very long and thorough if you want to dig into it.
The digital monoculars being sold are all quite large, but most of the casing is filled with empty air - there a couple of projects on the British forums where the guts have been pulled from them and mounted in a small box on the back of a day scope as a DSA.
I think the basic summary is that the best Digital does not yet compete with tubed Gen III or commercial Gen II NV. It may be near the level of Milspec Gen II, but still requires an external IR torch to be effective.
The Yukon Ranger is closer to the $500 mark, has a built in IR and is fairly popular with sky watchers.
Rolaids on youtube is an American experimenting with CCTV cameras and digital goggles for NV and rifle scopes, His vids are very long and thorough if you want to dig into it.
The digital monoculars being sold are all quite large, but most of the casing is filled with empty air - there a couple of projects on the British forums where the guts have been pulled from them and mounted in a small box on the back of a day scope as a DSA.
I think the basic summary is that the best Digital does not yet compete with tubed Gen III or commercial Gen II NV. It may be near the level of Milspec Gen II, but still requires an external IR torch to be effective.
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