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No Knock Warrants

Discussion in 'Legal' started by ARTiger, Apr 6, 2006.

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  1. ARTiger

    ARTiger Member

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    A young man who works indirectly for me in south Florida was recently the target of a "no-knock" warrant. At about 4:15 Monday morning his local SWAT team bashed in his apartment door with a battering ram, rushed into his dark apartment with flashlights attached to their weapons pulled him and his girlfriend forcably from their bed and subdued them with plastic cable ties on their wrists and ankles.

    Even after he identified himself and told them where to get his drivers license they left this couple restrained on the floor for over two hours. Finally the police determined they had the wrong address and released these folks and left without even the least bit of an apology. In fact while the couple was restrained the police ramsacked the apartment causing a good deal of damage.

    He was told by his lawyer that a lawsuit would not likely work as the city/county could claim "soviergn immunity". [I don't quite buy that and have asked our corporate counsel to inquire with other lawyers in that area.]

    HOWEVER . . . My thoughts are that WHAT IF the young man had a gun and was awake at the time. I am guessing he would probably be dead now. Where I live for instance we have a "castle law" and I can defend my home using deadly force. But what about from police who forcibly enter unannounced. What if the time frame from whenever they yell "police" and I start shooting back is out of synch? How the hell do I determine who's police and not in the middle of the night if I am awaked by my door crashing down?

    I am typically a law enforcement proponent, but it would seem that the civil liberties folks may need a hand on this issue. Nowadays it seems all about drugs. Am I alone in thinking drugs were more prevalent about 20 years ago than today? I also wonder about the socioeconomic fairness of these raids. For instance are the police going to clear their "no knock" raid on my house through our private security company who monitors our alarm and looks after the security gate to our neighborhood?
     
  2. ElTacoGrande

    ElTacoGrande Member

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    He would either a) be dead or b) be charged with assault on a police officer. From what I can tell about SWAT teams, I would bet on option a).

    This no-knock warrant thing got its start with our War on Drugs. Oh the things we give up in that war!

    Ultimately we are going to lose all of our freedoms, including gun rights, in the name of this War on Drugs if they keep on escalating it.

    Socio-economic fairness of these raids: Good point. There's no way they have raids like that in Beverly Hills. They probalby do them mostly in Compton and Englewood and whatever.
     
  3. exar

    exar Member

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    There was an incident recently where SWAT busted into a man's apartment based on the word of a narc. The man heard noises so he got into his daughter's bedroom and had his pistol drawn. Fearing for his and his daughter's life, he claimed no ID was made by the officers and when they bashed down the door he fired and killed the sherriff's son. Turns out he wasn't who they were looking for and found nothing. I believe the man is now facing the death penalty.
     
  4. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    If you were black in Mississippi and the cop you shoot is the son of the police chief, you'd be sitting on death row.

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5639
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184992,00.html

    No knock warrants are simply unacceptable. I have a defined legal right, even in California, believe it or not, to shoot first and ask questions later, if someone busts down the door of my house in the middle of the night without announcing who they are.

    Usually, these warrants are used for suspected drug dealers. End the drug war, and end this destruction of our civil rights.

    And free Corey Maye!
     
  5. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Why, by the presentation of the warrant to enter and search, silly. Oh, wait. This was a NO KNOCK raid, hmmmm.... maybe by the presentation of the warrant AFTER the entry was made? Oh, wait. Per some posters here, cops don't even NEED the have the warrant in hand when searching.
     
  6. exar

    exar Member

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    ArmedBear
    Thanks alot! Thats the exact story I was refering to. LEGALIZE AND REGULATE!!
     
  7. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    I think that "No Knocks" have a certain place. But they are being seriously abused. Cops need to weigh the risks and rewards here. The sad fact is that the only thing that is going to change the current thinking here is if more officers get killed by innocent citizens. Of course, the reaction to that would probably be the use of aerial bombing. Its rare for administrators to give up power.
     
  8. Don't Tread On Me

    Don't Tread On Me Member

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    Welcome to Amerika. :(
     
  9. Kodiaz

    Kodiaz member

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    If he was awake and used his gun in the state of Fl. He would eventually be found not guilty. 4 or 5 cops have been killed under the Castle law and the shooters have been found not guilty.
     
  10. ElTacoGrande

    ElTacoGrande Member

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    It doesn't matter if the cops yelled "Police!" or not, IMHO. No reasonable person would take that as proof that the invaders are police and acting lawfully. Maybe criminals should just start yelling "police!" and we have to comply with them?

    Police powers should depend on them acting like police, and if they serve a no-knock warrant and make a mistake and get killed the home-defender should have no liabilities in this.

    Police should wear clearly identifiable uniforms (not black commando gear), they should knock, identify themselves as police, have a warrant, give the resident a reasonable amount of time to comply with the warrant, and anonymous tips from liars (ie, narcs) should not count as probable cause for a home-invasion.
     
  11. ARTiger

    ARTiger Member

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    The story above about the the young man in Mississippi is what I was thinking of, but rather in his case he was apparently the better shot. He's on death row for defending his home? Unbelievable! Yet again, I know Mississippi and for those who think the worst of the "old south" is gone there are vestiges that linger. Still I would think that the guy with gun in hand on these raids gets killed by police more than not.

    I'm a really conservative guy who's starting to lean Way left on this issue. I do not think the police (wherever) would do these raids in "good" neighborhoods.
     
  12. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Not again.....:rolleyes:

    Tell you guys what, why don't you do a search on no knocks, and after you read all those threads you think you have something more to add to the discussion, then post it here, because most of those old threads are closed for good reason.

    Jeff
     
  13. psychophipps

    psychophipps Member

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    The main issue with 'No Knock' warrants is the lack of basic follow-up by the police performing them. It's simply being lazy from a legal and tactical standpoint to just take some random informant's word that some house needs a good dose of the SWAT lovin'. In all of the horror story posts above the police apparently didn't do any further intelligence gathering or recons of the location to be hit and that is where they ASS-U-MEd they had the right place with the right guy. Now the close neighbor who was the target moves their operations because of the close call. Nice one, officers! :rolleyes:

    The seven-Ps holds true in police work every bit as much as it does in the military,
    Mark(psycho)Phipps( HAHAHA! )
     
  14. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Now what fun would THAT be Jeff? Don't you know that dead horses need to be beaten? ;)
     
  15. exar

    exar Member

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    Beating a dead horse is just as much fun as it looks. Everyone else will see you doing it and join in...
     
  16. ARTiger

    ARTiger Member

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    Well excuse me. Thought this was a free and open discussion rather than one limited to those not already discussed. Are we supposed to search out pearls of wisdom from past posts before daring to post an opinion here?
     
  17. SomeKid

    SomeKid Member

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    Tell him to find a better lawyer. The local cops made him a millionaire, all he has to do is cash in his check.
     
  18. seeker_two

    seeker_two Member

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    Just out of curiosity, which moderator is usually the one who closes the "No-Knock-Warrant" threads?... :scrutiny:
     
  19. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    ARTiger, you must be mistaken ... ;)

    I have it on good authority from various LEO members of THR that these "wrong address" no-knock raids never happen :uhoh:
     
  20. Molon Labe

    Molon Labe Member

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    When the cops are conducting a no-knock warrant, they are not cops; they are simply armed thugs.

    It matters not what they're yelling when they're breaking down your door. Thugs are thugs, and you should defend yourself accordingly.
     
  21. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    What liability does the city have if they raid an address NOT listed on the warrant? It seems to me the city would be fully liable for all damages.

    I know on my house, the address numbers are large and very visible. They would have to be extremely incompetent to screw that up.
     
  22. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Well, yeah, but we're not a police state: we still have the Supreme Court in Washington, D.C., right? So things are still lawful, right?
     
  23. 50 Freak

    50 Freak Member

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    Wow, hope this doesn't happen to me, I'd would start opening up with my 308 FAL.

    Honestly, I'd never hear "Police". I'd be to focus on the sounds of somebody smashing my door in and running down the halls towards me.

    I'm not a gang banger or druggie, and the only trouble with the law is a speeding ticket. So my first thought is "not police" but home invader.

    I hate to say, but a bunch of innocent people will have to die before these no-knocks are stopped.

    Or a quicker route would route is an informant gives bad info on some poor Senator's kid. Have the SWAT raid his house and kill him and then you'll see Congress put a stop to this real quick.

    But as long as it is happening to "average" people like you and me, it's going to take a lot of body bags to stop this.
     
  24. Zero_DgZ

    Zero_DgZ Member

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    "Police!"

    (Bang, bounce.)

    "Hmm."

    (Bang, bounce. Bang, bounce. Bang, bounce. Bang, bounce.)

    "What is this, a blast door?"

    Having a brother-in-law that works in the door fabrication business may be very helpful indeed. I'll see if I can get you guys a deal.
     
  25. one45auto

    one45auto Member

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    If he'd had a gun they'd either have shot him dead, or in the unlikely event he managed to take one or two of them out first they'd have still killed him but planted evidence afterward to make the raid appear justified and cover up their absolute incompetence.

    The lack of any sort of apology clearly shows their arrogance and total lack of respect for the citizenry they're supposed to be serving. (And they wonder why they have such a bad reputation and people distrust them....)
     
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