No more shipping handguns without using an FFL?

[brboyer]

Looking at both UPS and FedEx tariffs - neither carrier will accept firearms for shipping from/to non-FFLs.

Am I reading this right?

UPS Tariff:
http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf
Effective January 2, 2012

3.6 Firearms and Ammunition
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) only
(a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies; and
(b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state, or local law from (i) an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual. The shipper shall comply with and shall ensure that each shipment containing firearms complies with all federal, state, and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.




FedEx Tariff:
http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guide/terms/express-ground/index.html
Effective January 2, 2012

FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).


ETA: We (non-FFLs) can still use USPS for rifles and shotguns, but for everything else (lowers, handguns, etc.) we must now go through an FFL.

 

[Goody3086]

UPS Tariff:
http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf
Effective January 2, 2012

3.6 Firearms and Ammunition
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) only
(a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies; and
(b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state, or local law from (i) an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual. The shipper shall comply with and shall ensure that each shipment containing firearms complies with all federal, state, and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.




FedEx Tariff:
http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guid...und/index.html
Effective January 2, 2012

FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

 

[gym]

Yes that is kind of what I said two days ago in a similar post.

 

[brboyer]

UPS Tariff:
http://www.ups.com/media/en/terms_service_us.pdf
Effective January 2, 2012

3.6 Firearms and Ammunition
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) only
(a) between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), and government agencies; and
(b) where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state, or local law from (i) an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual. The shipper shall comply with and shall ensure that each shipment containing firearms complies with all federal, state, and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.




FedEx Tariff:
http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guid...und/index.html
Effective January 2, 2012

FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

 

[oneounceload]

where not otherwise prohibited by federal, state, or local law from (i) an individual to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector; and (ii) from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to an individual.

You can ship your handgun TO an FFL (repair center or similar) and they can ship it back to you

 

[brboyer]

You can ship your handgun TO an FFL (repair center or similar) and they can ship it back to you

Yes, and they can use USPS too.

My main point was non-FFLs can no longer ship a handgun to another non-FFL (same state resident) without going through an FFL.

Or for that matter ship a firearm to oneself in another state without using an FFL (other than rifle/shotgun through USPS.

Now that brings up another question. If I was going to ship all of my crap to my hotel in another state (for a competition) instead of taking on the plane with me. UPS and FedEx wont take it from me so I have to go to an FFL, is this going to bring up the whole interstate transfer situation? Can my FFL ship the firearms to me at my hotel in another state?

 

[swinokur]

The UPS page also states this

Shipping Firearms
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
UPS accepts packages containing firearms (as defined by Title 18, Chapter 44, and Title 26, Chapter 53 of the United States Code) for transportation from and between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors (as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44 of the United States Code), law enforcement agencies of the United States (or of any department or agency of the United States), law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency (or political subdivision of any state), from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.

So in my mind there seems to be a contradiction

link:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

 

[brboyer]

The UPS page also states this



So in my mind there seems to be a contradiction

link:

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

That is the text contained in the tariff effective date 1/3/2011, it was changed this year. I guess they just have not updated that web page.

 

[theautobahn]

From the ATF (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html):

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

 

[swinokur]

So if the web page has not been updated, which info is correct? If you never read the actual tariff, are you breaking UPS policy when it still states it's ok?

 

[oneounceload]

Now that brings up another question. If I was going to ship all of my crap to my hotel in another state (for a competition) instead of taking on the plane with me. UPS and FedEx wont take it from me so I have to go to an FFL, is this going to bring up the whole interstate transfer situation? Can my FFL ship the firearms to me at my hotel in another state?

Yes you can, it is done all the time

 

[brboyer]

From the ATF (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html):

I'm well aware of the law, but now that UPS and FedEx will not ship any firearms to a non-licensee from a non-licensee, intra-state or inter-state, I had practical questions...like details from FFLs regarding their legal obligations in this situation (4473, NICS, etc.). And yes I know we can ship rifles/shotguns via USPS.

 

[brboyer]

So if the web page has not been updated, which info is correct? If you never read the actual tariff, are you breaking UPS policy when it still states it's ok?

The tariff represents their corporate policy.

So, IMO

are you breaking UPS policy when it still states it's ok?

If they lose it, you will not be getting any money out of them. Maybe, depending on what a judge is going to think when their counter person accepts one for shipment, does that waive their tariff? I don't think so, but I'm not a lawyer.

 

[oneounceload]

UPS accepts packages containing firearms.........from and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law, and when such shipment complies with all federal, state and local laws applicable to the shipper, recipient, and package.

So, yes they do accept pkgs and will, by this statement

 

[gym]

So the ffl forms I have sitting here, "the package". Includer a C&R. Could I ship a non C&R gun, "say a glock" to another FFL, with it, if I wasn't selling a gun? If it is an FFL, it should be ok, But I am sure it's not.

 

[Librarian]

The first version of the UPS tariff stating they require an FFL involved is from July, 2011; it supersedes any earlier version.

Those marked with an effective date supersede any with an earlier date, even if sloppy website maintenance leaves an earlier version available.

It's a remarkably stupid corporate policy.

DHL won't ship firearms at all; can't find a US website, but a UK site says

DHL Prohibited and Restricted Commodities
Prohibited and Restricted items that apply to shipments from DHL Express account holders and non-account customers.
The following items will NOT be accepted for carriage by DHL.
...
Complete original and imitation firearms and firearm parts, (includes rifle butts, trigger mechanisms, screws / bolts etc which are manufactured for the sole purpose of creating a functional firearm), ammunition, explosives
...

 

[Patriotme]

I used a FedEx branch to ship a handgun back to Springfield last weekend. Most of the FedEx shippers in my area aren't shipping firearms unless you have a FFL but I don't think that's the law.

 

[brickeyee]

Most of the FedEx shippers in my area aren't shipping firearms unless you have a FFL but I don't think that's the law.

NONE of the storefronts are supposed to ship firearms for FedEx or UPS.

Firearms are only supposed to be accepted by hubs or company drivers in company trucks (likely since they go to a hub).

 

[dogtown tom]

brickeyee

Quote:
Most of the FedEx shippers in my area aren't shipping firearms unless you have a FFL but I don't think that's the law.

NONE of the storefronts are supposed to ship firearms for FedEx or UPS.

Firearms are only supposed to be accepted by hubs or company drivers in company trucks (likely since they go to a hub).

Not correct.
FedEx allows shipping firearms from any FedEx Office location.

 

[Patriotme]

Not correct.
FedEx allows shipping firearms from any FedEx Office location.

That's what one of the branches told me. They made a point of saying that they (and FedEx) are not anti gun. They said they just didn't want to deal with more gov regulations.

 

[swinokur]

The tariff represents their corporate policy.

where is that written?. If the portion I mentioned is still on the web site, why isn't that company policy until it's removed as well?

Just because there is an apparent conflict doesn't mean it's not policy any longer until it's removed IMO. You'd be perfectly legal pointing that out.

Most people would be more apt to read the web page than digging into the tariff.

 

[brboyer]

where is that written?. If the portion I mentioned is still on the web site, why isn't that company policy until it's removed as well?

Just because there is an apparent conflict doesn't mean it's not policy any longer until it's removed IMO. You'd be perfectly legal pointing that out.

Most people would be more apt to read the web page than digging into the tariff.

Link to the tariffs are in the OP.

The following contains the general terms and conditions of contract under which United Parcel Service® (“UPS”) is engaged in the transportation of packages itself and jointly through interchange with its affiliates via the services described below.

The UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service (“Terms”) are effective on the date set forth above and are subject to change without prior notice. The Terms are published periodically in printed form in the UPS Rate and Service Guide (“Service Guide”) and electronically on the UPS website (ups.com®). The most current and controlling version of the Terms is published at www.ups.com/terms and is available at all local UPS offices. In tendering a shipment for service, the shipper agrees that the version of the Terms and the effective Service Guide in effect at the time of shipping will apply to the shipment and its transportation.

Most people would be more apt to read the web page than digging into the tariff.

Yep, just like most people never read their lease agreements or any number of other legal contracts. But that does not mean they are unenforceable.

 

[swinokur]

Yep, just like most people never read their lease agreements or any number of other legal contracts. But that does not mean they are unenforceable.

If it's still there, then how can it not be a policy as well, even if in conflict?

The fact there is a conflict makes it easier, not harder to defend IMO. Which one does UPS enforce?

 

[brboyer]

If it's still there, then how can it not be a policy as well, even if in conflict?

The fact there is a conflict makes it easier, not harder to defend IMO. Which one does UPS enforce?

Do you honestly not understand the quoted phrase "conditions of contract" above?

 

[swinokur]

of course I do. what does that have to do with the other information. One says it is OK, the other says it isn't. I wonder if a counter person even knows.

How can it be considered the contract if it's contradicted by UPS itself?? UPS is breaking their own "contract" with itself when it accepts the firearm, which they still do.

Afraid we're not gonna agree on this. I know guys who ship firearms UPS for vacation purposes. So apparently it isn't much of an contract thing.

So much for just words.