no S#?

[zignal_zero]

I touched on this, in a different thread (in the NFA section), but believed it was more appropriate here as it isn't NFA related.

I have always been under the impression that the BATFE considers the receiver the "firearm" and that it is the portion requiring a serial number. This is confirmed by an AK pistol parts kit that I have purchased - it lacks a receiver and therefore can be shipped directly to a non FFL holder even though several parts bear a serial number. Also, if I buy a NDS stripped receiver, it'll have a serial number, be required to go through an FFL, and IT will be considered the "firearm". This would mean that I have one serial number on my front trunion and one on my receiver and the one on my trunion means NOTHING. OK, that's all pretty normal, here's where it gets weird - I am babysitting a commercially produced AK pistol (Draco) and it has NO SERIAL # on the receiver. I know that it the original receiver because I know the purchaser and the receiver is marked with he importer's information. However, the only serial number close to the receiver would be the one on the front trunion which cant really count because I have one of those in my parts kit which does not have a receiver.

Can someone explain this? Part of me wonders if this has something to do with how long its taking for more Dracos to hit the market and if the new ones will have serial numbers on their receivers.

 

[CoRoMo]

...the BATFE considers the receiver the "firearm"...

Not always. The ATF considers the chief serialized component to be the 'firearm'.

A Ruger Mk III is serialized on the upper/barrel/action, not the grip frame. The upper is the 'firearm' here.

An AR15 is serialized on the lower receiver. The lower is the 'firearm' here.

A Keltec pistol is serialized on an aluminum insert that sets inside the grip frame. The insert is the 'firearm' here.

I doubt that this answers your question though. I have only a little experience with the AK platforms.

 

[Blackhawk30]

The trunion on a foreign made ak IS the rcvr.Its only the american made sheet metal rcvrs that are serialized.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

...even though several parts bear a serial number...

Numbers on gun parts are not always serial numbers.

On hand fitted guns, like the Mauser C96, the factory would mark the full serial number on the barrel extension (upper receiver), grip frame (lower receiver), and the last 4 digits on the bolt, locking block, and certain other parts.

On guns designed with interchangeable parts, like the M1 Garand, the receiver has the full serial number, but the numbers on the parts are often just "drawing numbers" or simply part numbers.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Not always. The ATF considers the chief serialized component to be the 'firearm'.

Please cite a reference. The ATF considers the FRAME or RECEIVER to be the firearm, whether or not it has a serial number:

18 USC 921:

18 USC § 921 - Definitions

(a) As used in this chapter—

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

No mention of serial number in there at all...

 

[Zak Smith]

It sounds funny but it's as good a criteria as any we have, really.

An illustration is that on AR's the lower is the serial numbered component (firearm), while on FALs, it's the upper.

And clearly FAL lowers and AR-15 uppers are not legally firearms...

 

[medalguy]

I have a Luger pistol and nearly every part on the gun has a serial number, sometimes only the last 2 or 3 digits of the frame number but a serial number nonetheless.

 

[Twmaster]

If it's just two or three digits that is not a serial number. That's an assembly number etc.

Otherwise the same serial number would repeat every one hundred or one thousand weapons in a series.

 

[45bthompson]

That is true but the assembly number on an 08 luger is the last two digits of the serial number. If it was the whole thing there would far fewer "correct" lugers out there.

 

[CoRoMo]

The ATF considers the FRAME or RECEIVER to be the firearm

You are always reliable to paste the written law. I wish I were as diligent.

But I don't think this is the only instance where the text of the law differs slightly from how it is being, and has always been enforced. While the text states as much, we all know -I'm assuming you know- how firearms are ACTUALLY being regulated.

I can order and receive at my house, without FFL bother, the completed lower receiver/frame of a Ruger Mk III and the plastic molded frame/lower of a Keltec, but I certainly can't do this with that portion of a 1911.

I'm not aware that the terms 'frame' and 'receiver' are specifically defined in the '68 GCA. In stead, these terms find their definition on a case by case basis in regard to each and every firearm platform.

The Tech Branch of the ATF decides which component of a submitted design will be the serialized 'firearm', be it the upper, the lower, or a machined block that sits inside one or the other. One of the newer evolutions in this is concept is the mere sleeve that is serialized on the Silencerco Sparrow suppressor. None of these components might have much more in common than... serial numbers. These highly different, respective parts will all be the chief serialized component, and they will be regulated as firearms.

Therefore, we are to conclude that wherever the ATF decides that the serial number will land is henceforth the 'frame'/'receiver'.

Apologies to the OP for the divergence.

 

[zignal_zero]

OK, so riddle me this - I buy a Romanian Draco. It has a SN on the front trunion. I demil it and attach the components to a NDS receiver. Which is the serial #? Ill have yellow forms (forget the number) for TWO different serial numbers and only one gun.

My point is - they shipped me a Romanian AK pistol kit. It has no receiver, they mailed it to my house. If I use a NDS receiver, logic would dictate that the SN it bears would be my pistols SN not the one on the trunion that was mailed to my house w/o paperwork. By this same logic, if I bend my own receiver and apply no SN (totally legal) my weapon would have NO SN. However, using a Draco as the ruler, the SN on my trunion would be my SN and (then) the NDS 100% receiver shouldn't even require one..... seeing as how the receiver on a store bought Draco doesn't have one.

Y'all see the dilemma here?

I mean, using Draco logic, I don't get to select my own serial number on a receiver that I personally mfg, but instead have to duplicate the one on the trunion? The one that apparently means nothing seeing as how it can be mailed directly to me instead of a FFL?

 

[Prince Yamato]

On a demilled ak, the American receiver is considered the serialized part. On a new ak, the trunion is sometimes considered the receiver. This variation in law takes into account the production of some nfa saiga-12s that use an existing (ie foreign receiver) to construct an aow.

 

[zignal_zero]

OK, so if I bend a flat and apply NO SERIAL # (totally legal, homemade guns don't require them) and I use this trunion that has a Serial # on it. Does my gun have a Serial #?

 

[Twmaster]

If you follow the logic that you bought a totally legal parts kit that does not require an FFL and the trunion was part of that kit, logic would say you do indeed have a legal home-made gun without aerial number.

Now having said the above...

The ATF is known for having ideas contrary to logic.

 

[Prince Yamato]

In thinking about it again, I believe on saiga shotguns, the trunion is the receiver. On the rifles the...receiver... is the... receiver...

 

[DMF]

Not always. The ATF considers the chief serialized component to be the 'firearm'.

Nope the ATF always considers the frame or receiver to be the firearm, and they do that because that is what federal law defines the firearm to be.

18USC921(a)(3)(A):
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

While many assume that for a handgun the frame or receiver would include the grip area, and that is most common, it's a bad assumption, as there are exceptions. The Ruger Mk I, II and III are exceptions as the frame/receiver is the area that forms the chamber and barrel, what Ruger calls the Receiver-Barrel Assembly (what you call the "upper"), but does not include the grip.

Many who are familiar with AR-15 rifles also incorrectly assume that a "lower receiver" is always the frame/or receiver, but that is not true because with some rifles it is the "upper." An example would be an MP-5.

 

[zignal_zero]

I'm still stuck on this: I have a store bought Draco here. There's a 4473(?) For it bearing the S# listed on the trunion. If I remove the parts from the numberless receiver and put them on a NDS that bears a S2, for which there is also a 4473, how many firearms do I have?

Just for clarity, in case I explained it poorly - I have TWO Draco's here. One is a commercially produced (Century) and its receiver bears no S#, its trunion does. Also, I have a parts kit, minus receiver, that was bought as a direct ship parts kit. It has a S# on the trunion.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'm still stuck on this: I have a store bought Draco here. There's a 4473(?) For it bearing the S# listed on the trunion. If I remove the parts from the numberless receiver and put them on a NDS that bears a S2, for which there is also a 4473, how many firearms do I have?

Just for clarity, in case I explained it poorly - I have TWO Draco's here. One is a commercially produced (Century) and its receiver bears no S#, its trunion does. Also, I have a parts kit, minus receiver, that was bought as a direct ship parts kit. It has a S# on the trunion.

Just because there is a serial number on the form 4473 does not mean that the person completing the form 4473 had any clue as to where a real serial number should have been. I've seen gun store employees almost always record the first serial number they see whether it is on the barrel, bolt or the receiver itself.

 

[hermannr]

And then there are firearms, manufactured prior to 1968, that have NO serial number at all...I have one, Marlin Model 60 built in the 1930's. Never had a serial number.