In this state (TN) any business can prohibit people from carrying concealed into their premises by posting a no weapons sign on all entrances. When faced with one what do people do? Carry anyway (it is concealed)? Leave the weapon in the car? Patronize another business that is more gun friendly? This is both a legal question and a "policy" question for CCW holders.
"No Weapons" Sign Posted: Now What?
- Thread starter The Rabbi
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Jack T.
Member
Go with what you are comfortable with. If you are cool with saying the risk of not carrying outweighs the risk of getting caught (and on private property it is a simple tresspassing, and that only if you don't leave when asked), then carry. If you are more worried about getting caught than being unarmed, don't carry.
Personally, I carry everywhere there isn't a metal detector. And the longer you carry, I think you will be more comfortable wearing it everywhere.
Personally, I carry everywhere there isn't a metal detector. And the longer you carry, I think you will be more comfortable wearing it everywhere.
Rabbi,
Where I live, they can post "no firearms." If they catch you violating it, they must verbally request that you leave the premises. If you remain upon the premises after they have verbally asked you to depart, they can call the police and, if you are still there when the officers arrive, the charge would be trespassing. IOW, it wouldn't be prosecuted under the firearms statutes at all, and you'd have to be both stupid and pig-headed to run afoul of it. That's the legal situation here.
Tactically ... um. I have "failed to see the sign" upon occasion -- usually when with a group of non-gunners who didn't know I was carrying. Excusing myself from the group to put a gun in the car would have drawn too much attention, so I went on in. No metal detector, good concealment rig, no qualms.
I've also, when with a group of gunners, looked the restaurant greeter in the eye and said, "We'll go elsewhere, because of your sign," and done so. (One sign subsequently came down; I don't know about the other because it was far away from my hometown and I didn't write down the name of the establishment. Haven't been that far north again since then.)
If at all possible, I avoid locking my gun in the car. I don't like disarming myself, I don't like handling my weapon in public even discreetly, and I don't consider that a locked car is a secure enough location for a loaded handgun. Sometimes it is all but unavoidable, but I will go a long way out of my way before I'll concede the necessity.
pax
Where I live, they can post "no firearms." If they catch you violating it, they must verbally request that you leave the premises. If you remain upon the premises after they have verbally asked you to depart, they can call the police and, if you are still there when the officers arrive, the charge would be trespassing. IOW, it wouldn't be prosecuted under the firearms statutes at all, and you'd have to be both stupid and pig-headed to run afoul of it. That's the legal situation here.
Tactically ... um. I have "failed to see the sign" upon occasion -- usually when with a group of non-gunners who didn't know I was carrying. Excusing myself from the group to put a gun in the car would have drawn too much attention, so I went on in. No metal detector, good concealment rig, no qualms.
I've also, when with a group of gunners, looked the restaurant greeter in the eye and said, "We'll go elsewhere, because of your sign," and done so. (One sign subsequently came down; I don't know about the other because it was far away from my hometown and I didn't write down the name of the establishment. Haven't been that far north again since then.)
If at all possible, I avoid locking my gun in the car. I don't like disarming myself, I don't like handling my weapon in public even discreetly, and I don't consider that a locked car is a secure enough location for a loaded handgun. Sometimes it is all but unavoidable, but I will go a long way out of my way before I'll concede the necessity.
pax
Mannlicher
Member
Sign? What sign?
I carried for over 30 years before there was any CCW. I am comfortable in choosing for myself, where I will be armed, and where not.
I carried for over 30 years before there was any CCW. I am comfortable in choosing for myself, where I will be armed, and where not.
gggman
Member
The Post Office is a good example. I've been in there many times while carrying, there aren't any metal detectors. If you're not causing any problems, and your weapon is well concealed, what's the problem? I do not like to leave a loaded firearm in my car, as cars are very easily broken into. Our CCW laws in this state clearly say that it's illegal to carry in courthouses and schools, and I would not try to carry in those places. Busineses that stick a sign on the wall saying "NO Weapons" are not included in that law, and I ignore those signs. Blockbuster Video has a "NO Weapons" sign, and I've been in there many times. What they don't know won't hurt them.
Vern Humphrey
Member
You can do two things. First of all, you can take your business elsewhere. Secondly, you can write to the corporate headquarters and ask them what measures they have taken for your safety, since they will not allow you the means to defend yourself. Tell them you have instructed your family that if you are victimized by a criminal in their premises while going about your lawful business, they are to sue.
Suggest they run their reply past their legal staff before replying.
Suggest they run their reply past their legal staff before replying.
El Tejon
Member
Oh, vey!
Signs? Not a problem here. Never see them here.
I see them all over in Tejas. Makes me mad to have such restrictions (they are inane), but I don't go in.
Self-defense is about avoidance, especially avoiding attorney fees!
Signs? Not a problem here. Never see them here.
I see them all over in Tejas. Makes me mad to have such restrictions (they are inane), but I don't go in.
Self-defense is about avoidance, especially avoiding attorney fees!
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Personally, I like such signs. They let me identify businesses that discriminate against gun owners and let me make sure that those businesses do not get my money.
If I really like the business, I might make an attempt to educate them on the issues and point out the potential loss of income. For the most part though, I am more than happy to honor their request and take my money somewhere else.
If I really like the business, I might make an attempt to educate them on the issues and point out the potential loss of income. For the most part though, I am more than happy to honor their request and take my money somewhere else.
Kurt S.
Member
Note that I do not advocate that anybody breaking their state laws, chance losing their CHL or even just ticking some anti business owner off. This is simply what I do. I am usually carrying so small and light and well concealed that I usually just tough it out (long as there are no metal detectors) and walk in like nothing's amiss. If I think there's the slightest chance of being discovered I turn around and lock the piece in my vehicle. Whichever way, I do my business, get out of there and don't ever come back. When I first began CCW I used to be really paranoid but I don't let it get to me anymore.
Now, what happens if I have to use the piece in a "signed" business? I've thought about a lot. The answer I always come up with is that I'm in a world of hurt anyway if I do have to fire shots so carrying against signage is gonna be the least of my worries.
I'm not sure where in Texas El T is seeing all these signs but most of them here in Houston concern the "unlawful carry of a weapon" which is good for up to 10 years as Bubba's roomate and/or $10,000 fine. If you have a CHL these signs do not apply, you are lawfully carrying. You see these wherever alcoholic beverages are sold- this means restaurants, grocery stores, convenience stores, etc. The next most popular are the "Gunbusters" type signs which let you know the owners are antis but these signs have no force in Texas law. The only signs that are legal must be of a certain minimum size, have very specific verbage, be posted prominently, and be in both English and Spanish. I travel frequently to Dallas, Fort Worth, and Midland and can only recall seeing maybe 2 or 3 in the last few years.
Now, what happens if I have to use the piece in a "signed" business? I've thought about a lot. The answer I always come up with is that I'm in a world of hurt anyway if I do have to fire shots so carrying against signage is gonna be the least of my worries.
I'm not sure where in Texas El T is seeing all these signs but most of them here in Houston concern the "unlawful carry of a weapon" which is good for up to 10 years as Bubba's roomate and/or $10,000 fine. If you have a CHL these signs do not apply, you are lawfully carrying. You see these wherever alcoholic beverages are sold- this means restaurants, grocery stores, convenience stores, etc. The next most popular are the "Gunbusters" type signs which let you know the owners are antis but these signs have no force in Texas law. The only signs that are legal must be of a certain minimum size, have very specific verbage, be posted prominently, and be in both English and Spanish. I travel frequently to Dallas, Fort Worth, and Midland and can only recall seeing maybe 2 or 3 in the last few years.
Can anyone comment on Georgia signage? I am awaiting my CCW permit and have noticed at least one place that has such as sign. That being my bank Wachovia.
As I understand it there is no legal method provided by GA for a business to prohibit lawful carry where it would otherwise not be prohibited.
Anyone have a definitive info on GA signage rules?
I figured that once I got use to carrying I would be ignoring that little signage on my bank door the extremely few times I have to actually enter the bank, and if they ever gave me any grief; yank out all my cash.
As I understand it there is no legal method provided by GA for a business to prohibit lawful carry where it would otherwise not be prohibited.
Anyone have a definitive info on GA signage rules?
I figured that once I got use to carrying I would be ignoring that little signage on my bank door the extremely few times I have to actually enter the bank, and if they ever gave me any grief; yank out all my cash.
El Tejon
Member
Kurt, I go to Austin and Saint Tony's (then out to Kerrville). Fewer and fewer since '95.
P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
I've not seen these signs but - strikes me that ''No Weapons'' on a sign is both ambiguous and thus ineffective.
''No weapons permitted on these premises'' ...... now that says something .. and you would disregard (or not) fully understanding the meaning. But just to sign ''No Weapons'' ... well, I mean ... ''We have no weapons here''??
Then there is the possible pedantic assessment of ''weapon'' ..... knives are weapons .. so you gotta leave knife in car?? Maybe not carry a hammer???
I'm glad I don't see these absurd items .... schools and Courthouses .. they are my exclusion zones ... and for Fed law reasons. Beyond that - everything goes.
''No weapons permitted on these premises'' ...... now that says something .. and you would disregard (or not) fully understanding the meaning. But just to sign ''No Weapons'' ... well, I mean ... ''We have no weapons here''??
Then there is the possible pedantic assessment of ''weapon'' ..... knives are weapons .. so you gotta leave knife in car?? Maybe not carry a hammer???
I'm glad I don't see these absurd items .... schools and Courthouses .. they are my exclusion zones ... and for Fed law reasons. Beyond that - everything goes.
sm
member
What guns?
What signs?
pax -
brought something up each of us has to research for ourselves - what are the Reg's ,Statutes and PENALTIES in your respective local?
IN my local , certain places are off limits as per State Stats. Proper signage that one can see at a certain distance must be displayed.
Yes if the eating establishment makes more monies on food than booze - it is legal to carry inside, Unless that sign is posted.
I Don't drink, I did go to a pool hall to relax after one of my finals with some classmates. Great cheesburgers, I played well...ask the classmates If anyone was CCW. They don't know I betcha - cause I know they don't know
Low profile is the key. Percentage -wise, folks don't know I own guns, know how to use much less have multiple permits.
Heck I've even had folks invite me to go their range to teach me about guns, teach me about hunting I've declined...then again I knew some mutual friends and had some fun with it.
Concealed means concealed. Applies to other responsibilties of the firearm owner. Like keeping mouth shut.
I don't have any guns, I don't go to the range...just a backpack, different from the other one I most often carry...different "course materials".
I installed a lock box for a classmate's vehicle. Only 3 people know she has it, Her Dad, herself and I.
What guns, what signs...??
What signs?
pax -
brought something up each of us has to research for ourselves - what are the Reg's ,Statutes and PENALTIES in your respective local?
IN my local , certain places are off limits as per State Stats. Proper signage that one can see at a certain distance must be displayed.
Yes if the eating establishment makes more monies on food than booze - it is legal to carry inside, Unless that sign is posted.
I Don't drink, I did go to a pool hall to relax after one of my finals with some classmates. Great cheesburgers, I played well...ask the classmates If anyone was CCW. They don't know I betcha - cause I know they don't know
Low profile is the key. Percentage -wise, folks don't know I own guns, know how to use much less have multiple permits.
Heck I've even had folks invite me to go their range to teach me about guns, teach me about hunting
I've declined...then again I knew some mutual friends and had some fun with it.Concealed means concealed. Applies to other responsibilties of the firearm owner. Like keeping mouth shut.
I don't have any guns, I don't go to the range...just a backpack, different from the other one I most often carry...different "course materials".
I installed a lock box for a classmate's vehicle. Only 3 people know she has it, Her Dad, herself and I.
What guns, what signs...??
OrvilleYertleson
Member.
- Joined
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- 398
Well, if the sign is not obvious, or if it is not posted on the entrance I choose to enter through, I may ignore it.
But usually when I see a no weapons sign I read it as a "we don't want your business here" sign and I go spend my money somewhere else.
But usually when I see a no weapons sign I read it as a "we don't want your business here" sign and I go spend my money somewhere else.
Sylvilagus Aquaticus
Member
I take it on a case by case situation. If it is someplace I really need to be, such as an office building (not a fed.gov building) and there is a gunbusters sign up, I ignore it. If it is a real, genuine 30.06 sign, I may ponder for a few seconds before I ignore it, unless I know I'll have to go through a search or metal detector.
That's the whole purpose of concealed. Nobody knows you're carrying.
I don't go into bars or places with the 51% sign. It's been years since I've felt the need to go to Six Flags, et al. I don't spend my money at retail establishments that don't think CHL holders are responsible enough to come inside. I think I'll invest in carpenters pants and a roofing hammer if push came to shove, though.
Regards,
Rabbit.
That's the whole purpose of concealed. Nobody knows you're carrying.
I don't go into bars or places with the 51% sign. It's been years since I've felt the need to go to Six Flags, et al. I don't spend my money at retail establishments that don't think CHL holders are responsible enough to come inside. I think I'll invest in carpenters pants and a roofing hammer if push came to shove, though.
Regards,
Rabbit.
HankB
Member
Sometimes, talking to the owner/manager can have the sign removed. I just accomplished this recently for the restaurant of a hotel I recently stayed at in Minnesota.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80058
Be sure you know what the LAW actually says in YOUR jurisdiction. Here in TX, to be valid and binding on a CHL holder, a "no guns" sign has to meet VERY SPECIFIC requirements. If it does NOT meet ALL of those EXACT requirements, it has no force of law behind it. (Of course, the law itself prohibits concealed carry in some places like courthouses and such.)
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80058
Be sure you know what the LAW actually says in YOUR jurisdiction. Here in TX, to be valid and binding on a CHL holder, a "no guns" sign has to meet VERY SPECIFIC requirements. If it does NOT meet ALL of those EXACT requirements, it has no force of law behind it. (Of course, the law itself prohibits concealed carry in some places like courthouses and such.)
Andrew Rothman
Member
That's me, too.
In Minnesota, there must be a sign, a verbal notification, demand for compliance, and failure to leave before a $25 petty misdemeanor trespassing charge can be applied.
I don't carry into schools, day cares or post offices.
manwithoutahome
member
That's one of the great things (so far) about Oregon. Even if places have "signs" on them, the least they can do is ask you to leave. The only places that I've seen those signs is at the medical center here and if you are there for care, they cannot ask you to leave or stow the firearm until you've gotten treatment and they can't ban you from coming back if you are there for treatment. It's mostly just a sticker that some people will obey, I not being one of those people .
Also, in Oregon, you CAN carry on school grounds if you have a CHL, be it elementary or university. Some of the universities here are trying to make their own laws but by Oregon law, only the legislators can do that, all other laws when it comes to carrying CHL's made by the counties or cities is null and void. Counties and cities can only make law about the discharge of firearms within the CITY limits (so if you live out of the set city limits, even those laws don't apply to you, as in my case).
We do have our "criminal free" areas, the courthouse ONLY if the feds use it also, which we are getting a fed court house here so the local and state court houses will be open to CHL's in Eugene. The way that Oregon law states the statues, only fed areas are "off limits", including the sterile area of the Airport, but not the unsterile areas.
For such a liberal state (actually, it stands about 50/50 when it comes to the actual population, not just the cities) they have good gun laws (actually that's an oxymoron, there are no good gun laws) as far as restrictions go.
Oh course, the state would be GREAT if they just had the law of the Bill of Rights when it comes to guns, and taxes, and government and
M.
.Also, in Oregon, you CAN carry on school grounds if you have a CHL, be it elementary or university. Some of the universities here are trying to make their own laws but by Oregon law, only the legislators can do that, all other laws when it comes to carrying CHL's made by the counties or cities is null and void
. Counties and cities can only make law about the discharge of firearms within the CITY limits (so if you live out of the set city limits, even those laws don't apply to you, as in my case).We do have our "criminal free" areas, the courthouse ONLY if the feds use it also, which we are getting a fed court house here so the local and state court houses will be open to CHL's in Eugene. The way that Oregon law states the statues, only fed areas are "off limits", including the sterile area of the Airport, but not the unsterile areas.
For such a liberal state (actually, it stands about 50/50 when it comes to the actual population, not just the cities) they have good gun laws (actually that's an oxymoron, there are no good gun laws) as far as restrictions go.
Oh course, the state would be GREAT if they just had the law of the Bill of Rights when it comes to guns, and taxes, and government and
M.
I have only ever seen one sign restricting the carrying of a firearm.
It was at a local Wal-Mart, and I ignored it and carried anyway.
I have also carried into post offices and even once into a bank by accident.
No sirens or flashing lights went off.
Realisitically, what is worse?
Carrying a concealed weapon that no one is going to see into a place or stepping out of your car and yanking your SIG out in public so you can stash it somewhere?
I figure that pulling a gun in public, even if it is just to put it away, draws more attention and is more likely to get you better acquainted with the police.
It was at a local Wal-Mart, and I ignored it and carried anyway.
I have also carried into post offices and even once into a bank by accident.
No sirens or flashing lights went off.
Realisitically, what is worse?
Carrying a concealed weapon that no one is going to see into a place or stepping out of your car and yanking your SIG out in public so you can stash it somewhere?
I figure that pulling a gun in public, even if it is just to put it away, draws more attention and is more likely to get you better acquainted with the police.
Bob F.
Member
For a while local Wal-Mart had a sign: no weapons except legal CHL. Now, even that's gone. I don't carry in the Courthouse, rarely go there anyway. Don't carry in the schools; never go there. It's "concealed"!!!!!!!!!!!!
Never had anyone offer to take it away from me.
Stay safe.
Bob
Never had anyone offer to take it away from me.
Stay safe.
Bob
Tom Servo
Member
I've asked police officers about it on a couple of occasions, and the response has been, private property in Georgia is something of a sacred concept, and the owner can place whatever restrictions they want as long as they're not legally discriminatory. For example, if I run a shop, and I just don't like the way you look, I can kick you off the premises and you don't get a choice in the matter.
Of course, the only recourse is a criminal-trespass warning the first time, and only if you stick around long enough for the cops to arrive. The only places I've really noticed a "no guns" sign, though, have been Wachovia and Waffle House (and alot of them don't have the signs anymore). I bank at Wachovia, but in the rare instance that I actually have to go to one of their branches, I just use the drive-through. There is no law in Georgia that prohibits carrying in a bank, and I ran a shop that used Bank of America for awhile. Carried all the time when I was taking deposits in, and once, the guard even pointed out that I was printing.
Where I work, I quietly encourage carry for my customers, and if I notice, I'll strike up a conversation, but I've actually had one guy escorted off the property. He'd show up every Friday night, three sails to the wind, and one night, he just kept casually brushing his jacket back far enough to make his sidearm visible. I told him point-blank that he shouldn't be carrying, that I didn't trust him with a firearm in his condition, and that he was not to carry on my property. His response was, "dude, I come downtown so I have a reason to carry my piece." Buh-bye. He got belligerent, and a Dekalb Co. officer walked in. I pointed the situation out, the officer followed him to his car, and it was off to the lovely world of DUI for him. What irked me the most is the negative picture this moron paints of CCW folks.
His was an extreme case, but from what I've heard, if you "miss" the sign at the door and the cops are called, most of the time, you just get a verbal warning and a wink.
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