Noob handloader has a few questions

[vtuck2]

Guys,

Some few years ago, I bought some basic reloading gear. At the time I think I de-primed and primed a box of .45ACP brass but that was about it. A job came up, this came up, that came up, and the magic moment was lost.

At that time I also bought two or three reloading manuals. I am a rather cautious and studious fellow (you know the type who wears a belt and suspenders too...). So, I assure you, at that time if I primed a few cases, I was "up to speed" on the safety of it all.

However, now that a few years have slipped by the knowledge has leaked out and I have to get up to speed again. I recently read that there is potential danger in relying in "old reloading data".

So, my question is: "How old is old?"

One of the books I bought was "Modern Reloading - Second Edition" by Richard Lee. According to the preface the book was last reprinted in 2004. Is this manual "old?"

Similarly, I have one or two other guides. As I recall, one is the Speer manual. I don't remember how many other manuals I have but I would have bought them at the same time I bought the Lee book AND the reloading gear.

I also don't remember the loader model. But it was no doubt the "starter level" Lee single stage press. About that time, a wonderful old gentlemen with whom I was internet friends, and who loved ballistics and reloading, up and offered to sell me a bunch of his equipment. I did not ask him why, I simply paid his asking price. At the time, I suspected that he was seriously ill.

Enough time has elapsed that I no longer even remember what I bought. Hence, I don't even remember what I now own. So I'm about to dig it out. But I do remember that I bought some "Lee loaders" from him in all the calibers that I am likely to be interested in shooting. These being (rifles) .243, .30-30, .30-06; (revolvers/pistols) 9mm, .38spc, .357, .44spc, .44 mag. and .45 ACP.

The powders I have are powders that I bought at that time. I also don't remember what these are but they are certainly the "old standbys". I've kept the cannisters in a freezer all this time. Once I get organized I will no doubt be peppering y'all with lots of questions. But for the moment my first question is: Am I still on safe ground to rely on the manuals I have? We are not talking manuals published in the 1920s...

Tonight I bought some fresh primers. I had decided to get CCI primers because they seem to be common in the manuals I have. However, Gander Mountain did not have everything I needed so one box of primers was Federal.

Let's say a "recipe" calls for CCI small pistol primers but I only have Federal SPPs. If I understand things, it is wise to drop back 10% when changing ANY component from a previous batch of reloads worked up (of which I have none!) and that, in any case, one should start at 90% of published loads ANYWAY.

So, my next question is: If a particular load calls for one brand but I substitute the equivalent primer (small pistol primer or whatever) in another brand, am I on safe ground to reduce the load to 90% and work up? I've seen innumerable people mention this. I just want to make sure I have the concept down pat.

Down the road, after I've rolled up and fired a few I will no doubt be asking y'all to educate me about "pressure signs". But for now I'm simply trying to get my ducks in a row and roll a few smokes without blowing up the forest if you get my drift. I'm far from getting to the point of chronographs, polishing tumblers, etc., but hope to some day. I am also interested in learning to cast and swage bullets. But for the moment, I'm just trying to get something to go bang that better than a squib while leaving my eyebrows and facial features intact and recognizable.

This is kind of a tangent... but what about the Lee loaders? I've been fascinated by them for ages. However, I seem to remember having read that some people consider them dangerous.

Are they a dangerous relic of the past? Or is there a place for them even today? I'm not a high volume shooter. So, they have a certain appeal to me by virtue of their stark simplicity.

Thanks to all.

VT

 

[GT1]

The books are fine, seem fairly recent and are worth re-reading to refresh on the mechanics of things also. You can cross reference on any of the popular powder manufacturer websites, they all have very recent load data.

Any change in primer means working up your loads again, so yes, you are right in assuming so.

Many millions of rounds have been loaded on the Lee loaders and Lee still sells them today. They are not what I'd call dangerous, though not paying attention means one can set off primers with them from what I have read(I have no experience with them though I am considering picking up a set some day). They will make up perfectly good ammo.

Keep the questions coming.

 

[Blue68f100]

Primers are pretty consistent these days so changing mfg is not a big deal unless your at max. I normally drop back a few steps and test back to where I was at. In 35+yrs I have never had a primer make a load unsafe, this is for rifle loads only. Change in velocity yes but very small amounts. With small volume pistol ammo the mag primers can make the charge hotter and some brands of std primers are hotter than others.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That 2004 manual is not old at all, you can safely use it.

I would not have kept my powder in a freezer. Moisture is the enemy of powders and there is a lot of moisture in a freezer. All you needed to do is keep the cap tight and store in a climate controlled environment.

DO NOT drop back 10% from the starting load data, only the Max charge weights. Going below the starting data is not recommended and can be unsafe.

I would not worry too much about high pressures with current load data. It's on the weak side and the only way you would get high pressures is if you make a mistake. In handgun ammo primer brands are not that important and won't change your load much. As long as you're using the right size and type of primer you're good to go. Again, name brands aren't critical in handgun ammo. Rifles are a little different and shotguns have to be followed exactly.

Handloaders are not dangerous if you follow the directions but they are very slow and will not make as good ammo as a solid frame single stage press. Don't get me wrong, they are not junk and if that's all you have that;s what you use but they are VERY slow.

Stop obsessing and just start loading, you won't turn back...

 

[Lost Sheep]

Powder in the freezer?

Let it warm up slowly and take care there is no condensation in it. (Shake it to see if there is clumping. I wouldn't even open it if I lived in a humid climate, but listen to it.

After it is room temperature, smell carefully. If it smells of any kind of harshness (vinegar or ammonia or at all odd) I would not use it. It makes great fertilizer because of all the nitrogen in it. Don't use too much (just like any other fertilizer). Good powder should smell not at all or slightly charcoal-like.

Photos of the press or reading us the printing embossed on it would help. An inventory of the parts will tell us if you are missing any essentials.

Welcome to the club.

Lost Sheep

 

[mingansr]

i'm a noob too, bud.

i just purchased a Lee Loadmaster for my 40s&w. by the way, if you want to go to a 5 turret autoloader, save yourself some dough by going to FSReloading.com. they're the factory auth. seller of Lee Precision stuff. and cheap! i bought my Loadmaster for 219.95 on sale (360 list). couldn't buy one on ebay for less than 240. FS sells everything at discounted prices. nice people too.

suggest the 4th die, the Factory Crimp die for the Loadmaster. the roll crimp of die three (bullet seating and roll crimping) can be backed off so you're only seating the bullet. die 4 will properly crimp.

see my brand new thread "case cleaning: tumbler w/ media or ultrasonic?" and watch the guys/gals post replies. as i will.

one last important link. my xdtalk forum colleagues told me of a very nice site that was donated by the glock boys for our sakes. go to 'loadmastervideos.com'. awesome!

good luck, and load on!

 

[vtuck2]

Powder in the freezer?

Guys,

Thanks to all. As to the powder in the freezer - it has never been opened since I bought it. Hope that helps my prospects for using it.

I don't remember how much or what it is. But I think there are three canisters. Don't remember the volume either but I assume they're one pound. They're about the size of a half gallon milk carton, perhaps slightly smaller, - only round.

V

 

[jim243]

Am I still on safe ground to rely on the manuals I have? We are not talking manuals published in the 1920s...

Yes they will be OK, each powder mfg has their own web-site, use them the best is Hodgdon's for load data.

I've kept the cannisters in a freezer all this time.

Not a good idea. Powder is cheap just keep it DRY and cool, not cold.

Are they a dangerous relic of the past? Or is there a place for them even today? I'm not a high volume shooter. So, they have a certain appeal to me by virtue of their stark simplicity.

Benchrest competitors use them all the time. Well, I am not sure I would use a hammer (even a rubber one) to set primers with, but they will work. I would suggest you get a Lee "Classic Turret press" (not the deluxe one) or a simple single stage press and some new dies. I started out with 45 ACP and load for 14 different calibers now.

The problem is once you try your own reloads, you will never go back to commercial ammo.

Welcome to our obsession.
Jim

 

[jk2008]

What kind of freezer was the powder stored in?

If it was stored in a basic deep-freeze type freezer (the kind that you have to thaw out every now and then to melt the ice build-up), then you are probably OK. Take the powder out of the freezer and let it come to room temperature without opening it. Let it sit a LONG time before opening it.

I'd be more concerned if the powder had been stored in a modern "frostless" freezer, since these machines use a thaw cycle to keep the frost from building up (this is what will give foods "freezer burn", which a deep freeze freezer will not do). The constant freeze-thaw-freeze cycle over several years MAY have damaged the powder, but this is only conjecture on my part.

The best thing to do (as one poster mentioned above) is to smell the powder after it has had a chance to return to room temp. If it smells bad, then get rid of it. One thing about the smell though, some powders DO have a "chemical" or "solvent" smell that is perfectly normal. You should only toss it if the powder has an unpleasant smell ("rotten", "acidic", "fishy" are terms I've heard used to describe it before).

 

[FROGO207]

FWIW the propellant and the manuals that were purchased at that time had matching specifications. They were made to be used together. I have several really old manuals from the 40's or so and when I get really old propellant I use the data from the time frame to load with it. I also will use up the ammo loaded with old propellant relatively soon as the really old stuff can go bad (get weak) setting in the loaded ammo. Your stuff is relatively modern in comparison so the current data from manufacturers web sites can be cross checked with your existing books and used either way. I like to find at least 3 sources and if they all somewhat agree I will use that. If not I use the lowest published amount and work the load up from there. There are some propellants that are not to be loaded down and they will show the start and max loads about the same. I now use the data from Modern Reloading in some loads with current components. Primers made in the last 75 years or so all seem to be OK and not prone to failure if stored reasonably well.

 

[kingmt]

The freezer will draw moister out. I agree wait until it gets to room temp to open it or it may suck the moister from the room.

 

[vtuck2]

Quote:
"There are some propellants that are not to be loaded down and they will show the start and max loads about the same."

I've noticed this. My understanding of the reason not to go beneath the starting load is that it creates the danger of a squib. I also SEEM to have read that some powders, if they don't reasonably fill the case, can cause unexpected high pressure upon ignition. Am I correct about this second issue? Or did I dream it?

I pulled the cannisters out last night. There are only three pounds in play. Two pounds of Unique and one pound of Bullseye.

As to the Lee Loaders and the seeming diceyness of whacking a primer with a hammer, it would seem to be reasonable to simply use the Lee primer tool I already have. The allure of the Lee Loaders is the ability to reload around the campfire... well, maybe not! (I'm joking, alright?!)

Thanks to all for all your great advice. I dragged all the gear out of hiding last night. Since I don't yet have a suitable bench I may try to load six with one of the Lee loaders just for fun.

VT

 

[Lost Sheep]

Quote:
"There are some propellants that are not to be loaded down and they will show the start and max loads about the same."

I've noticed this. My understanding of the reason not to go beneath the starting load is that it creates the danger of a squib. I also SEEM to have read that some powders, if they don't reasonably fill the case, can cause unexpected high pressure upon ignition. Am I correct about this second issue? Or did I dream it?

I pulled the cannisters out last night. There are only three pounds in play. Two pounds of Unique and one pound of Bullseye.

As to the Lee Loaders and the seeming diceyness of whacking a primer with a hammer, it would seem to be reasonable to simply use the Lee primer tool I already have. The allure of the Lee Loaders is the ability to reload around the campfire... well, maybe not! (I'm joking, alright?!)

Thanks to all for all your great advice. I dragged all the gear out of hiding last night. Since I don't yet have a suitable bench I may try to load six with one of the Lee loaders just for fun.

VT

Don't use a hammer. Use a mallet. Hard rubber works, but wood, plastic or rawhide is better (less bounce-back) in my experience. A metal hammer will work harden the tool. If you don't have a mallet, use a length of 2x2 (wear a glove to avoid splinters).

You didn't dream it. Slow powders, if loaded light can have pressure spikes and uneven burning if they don't both 1) reasonably fill the case and 2) develop pressure in a smooth progression in tandem with the bullet moving down the barrel. Terms like "flash-over", "Secondary Explosive Effect" (also known as S.E.E) and "Hamonically reinforced waves" will produce controversy, but interior ballisticians know of the effect. Unfortunately, even the experts cannot reproduce it perfectly at will and some even doubt its existence, or at least, disagree how the phenomenon is produced. Nevertheless, whether it exists or not, guns have spontaneously disassembled on occasion, so the manufacturers of the powders "known" to exhibit the phenomenon warn against lightening their charges.

Bullseye and Unique are NOT known to have this effect. They are fast powders. This makes them suitable for lighter loads. Fast powders get up to burning pressure quickly and easily. All smokeless powders require they be within a certain pressure range to burn well and fast powders reach that pressure quickly. This explanation is ultra-simplified, so all you experts out there, please give me a break.

Any powder, loaded light enough, can result in a squib or a bullet stuck in the barrel. The next shot then encounters a barrel obstruction with predictably disastrous results likely.

Get a metal ashtray (or glass or ceramic that you don't mind if it cracks) and pour a teaspoon of smokeless powder in a small pile. Light it. It will flare up (maybe a foot or so) and burn pretty fast. Black powder would explode. Black powder is an explosive. Smokeless powder is merely flammable. It burns faster under higher pressure and so much faster that it is indistinguishable from an explosion, but check the Dept of Transportation definition of smokeless gunpowder. Unconfined, it just burns, very fast.

The old buffalo hunters would reload around the campfire. (And they were using black powder.) Just keep your canister away from the flame or sparks. Frankly, I would rather roast marshmallows.

Good luck

Lost Sheep

 

[kingmt]

The danger is of squids the other is myth.

 

[Lost Sheep]

The danger is of squids the other is myth.

Squid are cephalopods.

Pressure spikes are real. (I believe)

Boogeymen are not real.

I suggest you Google the term "Secondary Explosive Effect" and decide for yourself.

I recognize that S.E.E. is hard to define and harder to reproduce. But, like other theories (the Earth circling the Sun, for instance) I believe it will someday be proved or disproved. Until then, I accept the possibility and follow the powder-makers' advice.

To do otherwise would be foolish.

When a cartridge is loaded with a very small powder load, the initial primer flash can actually fail to ignite the powder but has enough energy to force the bullet out of the case and up against the compression cone at the entrance to the barrel. Because the powder failed to burn, the bullet lodges into the expansion cone like a stuck plug. After a short delay, some of the powder manages to ignite and starts producing high pressure expanding gases. But since the bullet has stopped moving and is lodged in the compression cone, the gases build up to extremely high pressure which can rupture the gun.

This is a plausible explanation and fairly easy to understand. The same thing can happen without the bullet actually stopping, but merely slowing down. But that is harder to visualize.

It is even harder to visualize is a different theory, that a pressure wave bouncing back of the base of the bullet to cause a localized pressure spot.

Lost Sheep

 

[kingmt]

I have never seen where a powder manufacture says anything about this myth. Ever time someone tries to prove it is real they add evidence that it isn't.

They tried in the 80's to make people believe that one day we would run out of water. People still believe that. A few years back they started trying to convince people that CO2's were going to end the world. If people would quit running there mouth so much we would have so many CO2'S but then the plant would have less air & where would our Oxygen come from.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I have never seen where a powder manufacture says anything about this myth. Ever time someone tries to prove it is real they add evidence that it isn't.

I am not trying to prove it IS real. I am just saying that no one has proved that it isn't. There is, however, substantial evidence that SOMETHING other than double charges or squibs has exploded some guns.

Hogdon's warning to not reduce loads more than 3% mentions the potential for squibs, and also mentions "inconsistent ignition".

Far from trying to grind a personal axe, kingmt, I choose to err on the side of caution. There are ballistic scientists who do believe S.E.E. (or something like it) is real, dangerous, unpredictable and to be avoided. In the interest of the safety of vtuck2 and anyone else who reads this thread, I choose not to encourage the disbelief of evidence (even if it is inconclusive) that some practices may be dangerous.

They tried in the 80's to make people believe that one day we would run out of water. People still believe that. A few years back they started trying to convince people that CO2's were going to end the world. If people would quit running there mouth so much we would have so many CO2'S but then the plant would have less air & where would our Oxygen come from.

Who is this "they" of whom you speak?

All beside the point, unless you are a universal conspiracy theorist. I think your tossing in of Global climate change (global warming) and clean water shortages (by the way, you left out the dangers of overpopulation-Thomas Malthus, Essay on Population, 1798; Paul Ehrlich,The Population Bomb, 1968; and Rachel Carson, Silent Spring, 1962) are so much smokescreen.

I readily admit that detonation or S.E.E. is a controversial subject and that there is doubt whether it happens or not. But I will not take chances with other people's safety by telling them it does not exist while there is still doubt. If I am wrong and it's an old wives' tale, then, no harm done. If it is real and someone injures themselves based on my word, I don't want that on my conscience. Do you?

Shall we just say that I believe it can happen and you don't and that science has not proven it either way.

Hogdon does say "H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition." and "DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%." on its website,
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
and, as I said earlier, each reloader should do their own research and make up their own minds about what risks they want to take.

Whether the "inconsistent ignition" refers to S.E.E., "flashover", Detonation or something else is not important. Safety of new reloaders who depend on members of this forum for reliable advice is important. I take it seriously.

Lost Sheep

Post-script,
Kingmtn, I do appreciate your signature line and thank you for the sentiment

What I do isn't instruction for others. It is only the way I do things. You need to make your own decisions.

and take it seriously.

Post-post script.

Do you think if this line of debate needs to be continued, we should probably do it in a new thread? The start of this was an off-hand question by the O.P. who is, after all, a new loader and not interested (I hope) in pushing performance envelopes yet.

 

[Blue68f100]

Hogdon does say "H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition." and "DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%." on its website,

Back in the 70's the load books said to load Exactly as published. Not to change the charge at all. As modern test equipment is better able to see whats going on they have published a load range. But still warn against getting out side the box on this powder.

Every reloader has the responsibility to be safe to other beside your self. You will be held reliable if someone get hurt. And when they find out you were outside the box it can only get worst. Now this detonation or S.E.E. may only happen in 1 in a couple billion but something does happen. Otherwise they would have not brought it to every ones attention who uses this powder.

The final decision is yours make it wisely.

 

[kingmt]

Inconsistent ignition means it may not fully burn. If there was other dangers I believe they would have put it in there statement.

The "they" refers to a unknown origin but when it started it spread like wild fire. This disinformation that everyone stated was from Hodgdon was going like crazy around here for a long time. People would get mad when anything different was said. I would copy & past it in my post every few days. Those fires are back to sparks & I hate to see them flame up again.

Better safe then sorry is good when you can't find out in time but living in fear for no good reason isn't good. The truth shall set you free. Like of knowledge is what will destroy you.

 

[dmazur]

...These being (rifles) .243, .30-30, .30-06; (revolvers/pistols) 9mm, .38spc, .357, .44spc, .44 mag. and .45 ACP.

I did virtually the same thing, a few years ago. In addition to being really, really slow, I found one other drawback of the Lee Loaders - They don't FL resize bottleneck cartridges.

So, eventually, when you encounter increased effort to make the cartridge chamber, you may have to discard (or recycle) brass that really isn't worn out yet.

But you can probably continue using the Lee Loaders for the pistol calibers until you wear out your hammer.

The only danger I've ever read about is that, occasionally, you may set of a primer trying to seat it with the Lee Loader tools. Wear eye protection, and keep a clean pair of shorts handy...You aren't priming a charged case, so those are the two dangers (eye injury and being startled.)

I don't have any experience with the "Hand Press", but I understand it runs standard dies and so you can use it for FL resizing. But you have to buy a set of dies to use with it...it isn't a set of handles for the Lee Loader.

If you don't have something that will trim cases, you'll need to get that, as a few FL resizes may make a bottleneck rifle case increase in length past safe limits. And you might want to get some kind of case gauge for each rifle caliber, to help you set up your FL resizing die and check trim length.

Also, an inexpensive (but good quality) beam scale will let you develop loads with a little better control over the charge than the single dipper that comes with the Lee Loader. And, once you figure out that you want x.x gr of that powder, you can make a custom dipper out of a shell case and some wire (if you have access to a soldering iron.)

Finally, you can get a hand priming tool that will give you a good "feel" when seating primers, and then you won't have to seat primers with a hammer. This may help with the laundry expense a little...

Eventually, if you are happy with the Hand Press, you may want to get dies for your pistol calibers and retire the Lee Loaders to the back of some drawer.

(That's where mine are... )

 

[vtuck2]

niche for Lee loaders

Quote:
"Finally, you can get a hand priming tool that will give you a good "feel" when seating primers, and then you won't have to seat primers with a hammer. This may help with the laundry expense a little...

Eventually, if you are happy with the Hand Press, you may want to get dies for your pistol calibers and retire the Lee Loaders to the back of some drawer."

DM,

Thanks a bunch. Since I only have one pair of drawers I think it would be a plan to reload all the cases with the primer tool that came with the regular Lee loader I bought. It is also portable although admittedly, is sort of fragile.

If ever I take that canoe trip down the Congo River I will take a Lee loader and extra pre-primed cases or the little plastic primer tool doo-dad. Most of this stuff is fantasy between my ears of course. But hey. I'm man enough to admit it!

Best to all.

V

 

[dmazur]

Now you have me puzzled.

When I used Lee Loaders, the primer tool was a steel cup that held the primer while you tapped the tool with the case down onto it.

Watch this -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEl9wZyabc

and you'll see what I mean.

The only plastic do-dad in the kit I'm aware of is the powder dipper...

 

[vtuck2]

dmazur,

Sorry for the confusion. Here is the clarification:

You are correct about the Lee loaders. What may not have been clear is that I also have the complete single stage Lee loading "kit". I acquired the full kit from a sporting goods store (as I recall) and it came with the "loading tool" for lack of a better name.

Separately, from a wonderful old gentleman who was an internet friend, I acquired several "Lee loaders". We had an ongoing correspondence. He loved reloading. One day, out of the blue, he offered to sell me the Lee loaders. I found their simplicity to be irresistable - and his friendship priceless - so I bought them.

So, I was talking about using the Lee loaders for everything except the priming operation. That's when I jokingly said that it's because I only have one pair of "drawers". Really, I have two!

Best,

VT

 

[Lost Sheep]

Inconsistent ignition means it may not fully burn. If there was other dangers I believe they would have put it in there statement.

The "they" refers to a unknown origin but when it started it spread like wild fire. This disinformation that everyone stated was from Hodgdon was going like crazy around here for a long time. People would get mad when anything different was said. I would copy & past it in my post every few days. Those fires are back to sparks & I hate to see them flame up again.

Better safe then sorry is good when you can't find out in time but living in fear for no good reason isn't good. The truth shall set you free. Like of knowledge is what will destroy you.

Thank you for your kind words, Kingmt.

I don't live in fear. I don't tempt fate, so have no reason to fear. I exercise what I believe is a prudent amount of caution.

Thanks for clarifying your position.

I believe Hogdon might be deliberatly vague in their use of the phrase "inconsistent ignition" for reasons of their own, but the warning the put in all upper case letters if abundantly clear. "DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%." that there is a danger.

Lost Sheep

 

[kingmt]

I'm with you on not suggesting against what the powder manufactures suggest. If there is questions on what they mean then they should be asked.

I'm not sure what you mean by kind wards. There was nothing said that should have been taken as kind or unkind.

I have done a lot of testing & stuck enough bullets(intentional) that if they were shoot would keep me shooting for 2 hours I'm sure.