Noob with a ?

[nyctpt]

Hello,

Hey guys I'm looking to start reloading soon and have been lurking here for awhile picking up info. I'll probably be picking up a press and all the needed accessories in the next few weeks. I'll only be reloading .223 to begin with, and not in any great quantities. I shoot a Rem 700 SPS in .223 and I'm looking for accuracy at a decent cost. I know it'll take some time before I actually save money, but nothing gets cheaper lol so I figured I best get started. My best groups so far are just under .4 with Black Hills re-manufactured (blue box) and those cost me about .60 apiece. That's my goal.

My first question: Why is it unacceptable to get powder information from the powder manufacturers instead of a reloading manual? I have a copy of the ABC's of Reloading that I'll be reading over the next week or so. I was on the Accurate website yesterday and they have all of their load information available as a PDF, and I'm under the impression that the other manufacturers are the same. Accurate will mail a hard copy for free if you provide your address. Is the combination of the ABC's and info from the powder makers acceptable? The $15 for a manual isn't the issue, I just wonder why info straight form the horses mouth so to speak isn't ok.


Thanks,

Ryan

 

[dmazur]

As far as I know, it is acceptable.

However, you may find that a reloading manual from a company that makes bullet molds might have more data for lead bullets. (Lymans)

And, if you like Hornady bullets, their reloading manual covers every bullet they make, with a selection of powder types from different manufacturers.

Same goes for the Sierra manual.

The powder manufacturers try to include common bullets, it seems, but they might not have a load for the bullet you are planning to use.

(If you really want a challenge, try to find Barnes bullet data anywhere except their manual...)

Also, most reloading manuals include very good technical sections on the reloading process. The Sierra manual, for example, includes some information on reloading for gas guns which describes the special procedures they require. This may or may not be covered in reloading texts like The ABC's of Reloading.

 

[mgmorden]

No reason not the trust the powder manufacturers. It's an excellent source of data, and for some rarer powders (ie, a lot of Ramshot powders for example) it'll be one of very few pieces of data.

Overall, as long as it's published by someone REPUTABLE - ie, a powder manufacturer, an accessory/equipment manufacturer (Lee, Lyman, etc), or a component manufacturer (ie, Speer, Nosler), then you're good. Just don't trust random data off the web.

What an actual manual WILL often give you over "plain data" from the powder manufacturer's is good instructions and techniques to read about. That's valuable information, and I certainly think having a good actual manual is a good idea (I use the Speer, Lee, and Lyman manuals, in addition to online data from the powder makers), but such info was more important in the pre-Internet days when you didn't have access to a forum full of people that can help explain the basics.

In short, in today's world, if you're really starting on a budget, you should be absolutely fine with the free data by the powder manufacturers.

 

[KansasPaul]

Info below is from Shooting Times -I have personally tried some of the combos below while looking for that all elusive recipe for an AR that I once owned. Hope it is helpful to you.

Keep in mind that you will have to tailor your reload to your rifle - maybe +/- from a starting point. Use manufacturer recommendations for minimum and maximum charges.

I would also encourage you to research "Ladder Method" online as a tool for determining the best combination for a specific bullet/powder for your rifle.




Super-Accurate .223 Handloads
BULLET POWDER VELOCITY (fps) OVERALL LENGTH (inches) DATA SOURCE
(type) (grs.)
Speer 52-gr. Match BTHP W748 27.5 3397 2.240 L. Simpson
Sierra 53-gr. HP MatchKing TAC 26.0 3219 2.240 L. Simpson
Hornady 55-gr. V-Max Varget 27.0 3344 2.240 Hodgdon
Nosler 55-gr. Ballistic Tip Reloder 7 22.5 3284 2.250 L. Simpson
Sierra 55-gr. BlitzKing VV N-130 24.0 3300 2.250 Sierra
Nosler 60-gr. Partition Benchmark 22.5 3048 2.260 Nosler
Sierra 60-gr. HP VV N-133 24.0 3100 2.250 Sierra
Berger 64-gr. HP Match H335 25.0 3928 2.250 Les Baer
Hornady 75-gr. A-Max W748 23.3 2600 2.390 Hornady
Hornady 75-gr. A-Max H4895 24.5 2861 2.273 Les Baer
Hornady 75-gr. BTHP BL-C(2) 24.4 2600 2.250 Hornady
Swift 75-gr. Scirocco Varget 23.0 2714 2.270 L. Simpson
Sierra 77-gr. MatchKing Reloder 15 24.0 2648 2.260 L. Simpson
Berger 80-gr. VLD H4895 23.7 2744 2.350 Les Baer
Hornady 80-gr. A-Max Varget 24.4 2752 2.230 L. Simpson
Nosler 80-gr. J4 Comp H335 22.5 2719 2.450 L. Simpson
Sierra 80-gr. MatchKing Reloder 15 23.8 2600 2.550 Sierra
Berger 90-gr. VLD Reloder 15 22.0 2611 2.635 L. Simpson
Berger 90-gr. VLD VV N-550 23.0 2574 2.635 L. Simpson
Berger 90-gr. VLD IMR-4320 22.0 2561 2.635 L. Simpson
Sierra 90-gr. MatchKing H4895 21.7 2600 2.550 Sierra
Sierra 90-gr. MatchKing IMR-4064 22.4 2600 2.550 Sierra

NOTES: All loads with bullets up to 80 grains delivered sub-MOA, five-shot accuracy in the Les Baer Super Varmint with most averaging either close to or less than half an inch at 100 yards. The Berger and Sierra 90-grain bullets are too long to stabilize in a 1:8 twist and are shown for reference only. Winchester cases and Federal Gold Medal 205M primers were used in all loads. Velocity is the average of 20 or more shots measured 12 feet from the gun's muzzle. Maximum overall cartridge length for the AR15 magazine is 2.275 inches; loads shown with greater overall lengths are intended for single-shot loading directly into the chamber of the AR15.
NOTE: All load data should be used with caution. Always start with reduced loads first and make sure they are safe in each of your guns before proceeding to the high test loads listed. Since Shooting Times has no control over your choice of components, guns, or actual loadings, neither Shooting Times nor the various firearms and components manufacturers assume any responsibility for the use of this data.


Have Fun!

Blessings

Paul

 

[KansasPaul]

sorry for the lack of column spaces in my last post - it looked great while typing and got lost in electronic translation..... darn electrons

sorry....

Paul

 

[mgmorden]

sorry for the lack of column spaces in my last post - it looked great while typing and got lost in electronic translation..... darn electrons

I was bored at work so I figured I'd fix it

Super-Accurate .223 Handloads
BULLET 				POWDER TYPE 	CHARGE	FPS 	OAL(in)	DATA SOURCE
(type)  (grs.)
Speer 	52-gr. Match BTHP 	W748 		27.5 	3397 	2.240 	L. Simpson
Sierra 	53-gr. HP MatchKing 	TAC 		26.0 	3219 	2.240 	L. Simpson
Hornady 55-gr. V-Max 		Varget 		27.0 	3344 	2.240 	Hodgdon
Nosler 	55-gr. Ballistic Tip 	Reloder 7 	22.5 	3284 	2.250 	L. Simpson
Sierra 	55-gr. BlitzKing 	VV N-130 	24.0 	3300 	2.250 	Sierra
Nosler 	60-gr. Partition 	Benchmark 	22.5 	3048 	2.260 	Nosler
Sierra 	60-gr. HP 		VV N-133 	24.0 	3100 	2.250 	Sierra
Berger 	64-gr. HP Match 	H335	 	25.0 	3928 	2.250 	Les Baer
Hornady 75-gr. A-Max 		W748 		23.3 	2600 	2.390 	Hornady
Hornady 75-gr. A-Max 		H4895 		24.5 	2861 	2.273 	Les Baer
Hornady 75-gr. BTHP 		BL-C(2) 	24.4 	2600	2.250 	Hornady
Swift 	75-gr. Scirocco 	Varget 		23.0 	2714 	2.270 	L. Simpson
Sierra 	77-gr. MatchKing 	Reloder 15 	24.0 	2648 	2.260 	L. Simpson
Berger 	80-gr. VLD 		H4895 		23.7 	2744 	2.350 	Les Baer
Hornady 80-gr. A-Max 		Varget 		24.4 	2752 	2.230 	L. Simpson
Nosler 	80-gr. J4 Comp 		H335 		22.5 	2719 	2.450 	L. Simpson
Sierra 	80-gr. MatchKing 	Reloder 15 	23.8 	2600 	2.550 	Sierra
Berger 	90-gr. VLD 		Reloder 15 	22.0 	2611 	2.635 	L. Simpson
Berger 	90-gr. VLD 		VV N-550 	23.0 	2574 	2.635 	L. Simpson
Berger 	90-gr. VLD 		IMR-4320 	22.0 	2561 	2.635 	L. Simpson
Sierra 	90-gr. MatchKing 	H4895 		21.7 	2600 	2.550 	Sierra
Sierra 	90-gr. MatchKing 	IMR-4064 	22.4 	2600 	2.550 	Sierra

NOTES: All loads with bullets up to 80 grains delivered sub-MOA,
five-shot accuracy in the Les Baer Super Varmint with most 
averaging either close to or less than half an inch at 100 yards. 
The Berger and Sierra 90-grain bullets are too long to stabilize in 
a 1:8 twist and are shown for reference only. Winchester cases 
and Federal Gold Medal 205M primers were used in all loads. 
Velocity is the average of 20 or more shots measured 12 feet 
from the gun's muzzle. Maximum overall cartridge length for the 
AR15 magazine is 2.275 inches; loads shown with greater overall 
lengths are intended for single-shot loading directly into the 
chamber of the AR15.

NOTE: All load data should be used with caution. Always start
with reduced loads first and make sure they are safe in each of
your guns before proceeding to the high test loads listed. 
Since Shooting Times has no control over your choice of 
components, guns, or actual loadings, neither Shooting Times 
nor the various firearms and components manufacturers assume 
any responsibility for the use of this data.

 

[Hondo 60]

No problem with getting info from the bullet, powder or equipment manufacturers.

It's just the random "internet source" that we preach against.

Plus I really like dmazur's & mgmorden answers.

It's the tips & tweaks that you won't get from the above mentioned websites.

 

[MEHavey]

My first question: Why is it unacceptable to get powder information from the powder manufacturers instead of a reloading manual?

Many (most?) of us use multple sources when first setting up that first load in a series:

- Several manuals (Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady, etc, etc)
- The powder manufacturer (Usually website)
- QuickLoad (et cetera)

Each gives a slightly different view of the elephant, ...particulary where seating depths (as opposed to OALs) vs specific bullet types/manufacturers are involved.

So nothing is "instead of."
Rather, these other data sources are "in addition to."



post: Spring for a used copy or two of any of the loading manuals mentioned above, in addition to the ABC's.

 

[jeepmor]

I use online load data all the time from powder manufacturers. They accept the liability for providing it, it's reliable. They have a lot at stake, they check, recheck and check again.

When I employ other's pet loads, I double check with the mfr to be sure I'm not exceeding their recommendations. And if I do, I read carefully and do the math. Most SAAMI specs are quite underrated for a significant safety factor. However, I don't push it, I just enter with my eyes open.

As an engineer, I can tell you the mfr knows where the limits really are. As an engineer, I'll also tell you that I'd never tell my customers exactly where those limits are. The legal department, sure, but the customer, nope.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; I pay very little attention to any loads from any forum "expert" or "gun shop guru". That includes youtube. There are a lot of sites, not affiliated with any powder or bullet manufacturer, that lists load data, while mebbe safe, I avoid them. I've used my hard copy printed manuals almost exclusively (there's enough loads listed to last me quite a few years of experimenting/load work up). Those loads that don't come out of a manual, I have carefully researched prior to loading. I take my manuals, opened to the page I'm using, to my bench and set it on a stand so I can look at it. I'll check the load, usually highlited, before I start, once or twice while reloading, and once when I'm done. I haven't had to pull any bullets because of a "misread" load in 30+ years. I took my laptop to my bench once, but the auto shut off bothered me so I went back to my books. On rear occations, I'll write down the load on a sticky note and take that to my bench, but I get nervous, "did I copy that down right?", and wind up going to look at the book...

Hey, just an old guy's thoughts, and he has had no kabooms in 30+ years of stuffin' brass.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; I rarely pay any attention to any load from any forum "expert", or "gun shop guru". I almost exclusively use my hard copy printed manuals. There are some sites that give load data that have no affiliation with any powder or bullet manufacturer, and I rarely go to these sites, and I'll advize new reloaders to do the same. I take my manual to my bench, opened to the page I'm using, and set it there so I can refer to it before I start, and check when I'm done. Sometimes I will find an interesting load, but will not consider using it untill I have thouroughly researched it. I'm not limiting myself by using manuals only, as there are enough various loads to keep me experimenting/working up loads for years.

Hey, just an old guy's thoughts. And he hasn't had an OOPS! or KABOOM in over 30 years of reloading...

 

[nyctpt]

Thanks for all the answers guys.

I think I'll definitely pick up some manuals as I find them, I like the suggestion of finding the previous years edition used. That being said I 100% plan on staying well within mfr's recommendations, and starting with a proven load. I think I'm going to order some 55gr VMAX to use in my first loads.

My biggest handicap is that I live in Queens (NYC) and it's illegal to load in the city. I'm at my folks house upstate often enough and will be doing the actual reloading there. The plan at the moment is to do the research and purchase the equipment here. I have approx 200 cases that I can prep here as well. I will be upstate for a week at the end of August and my plan is to spend some time experimenting with the ladder test and then to come with with 200 or so rounds of decent handloads. Maybe not perfect for my gun, but on par with quality factory stuff. Does this sound doable?

Ryan

 

[mgmorden]

My biggest handicap is that I live in Queens (NYC) and it's illegal to load in the city.

Seriously? That's insane. I didn't think reloading was illegal anywhere in the US. Learn something new every day.

 

[nyctpt]

Leave it to NYC to make anything and everything illegal. No clue how they would ever enforce it but I don't want to find out. It's actually listed in the fire code as a violation so who knows who is even responsible to enforce it.

Ryan

 

[Fishslayer]

My first question: Why is it unacceptable to get powder information from the powder manufacturers instead of a reloading manual?

Who told you this? Somebody who sells reloading manuals?

There are numerous sources of data. What you really need to do is bounce data from different sources. Typos happen. Maniacs happen. You know those guys. They like to quote Elmer Keith but leave out the part about him blowing up a number of guns.

I use Alliant powders & use their website frequently for a reallity check as they are pretty conservative.