Norinco Ak-47 stock short barrel?

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wlemay

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So I was out shooting today and my buddy had his AK-47 (made by norico). He bought the gun used in a private sale and we had shot it a few times in the past. Today I couldn't help but notice that the barrel seemed a little short, so I compared it (chamber to chamber) to my AR-15 which has a 16in barrel on it. Sure enough the barrel was almost 2in shorter than the AR. So I took a cleaning rod and measured how deep it went into the both barrels with both bolts closed; my AR measured a little over 16in, but he AK was about 14.5in. Keep in mind the Ak was seemed to be 100% stock. I want to know what the deal is with this, I am not sure what model the AK was, I do not think it is that old and I know it's not a "ak pistol".

Have any of you heard of this before? I assume it would be classified as a SBR since the barrel is so short... But I dont know if there was some loop hole or something for this gun, it might be pre ban, but I doubt that will affect it's legal status. Like I said everything was stock on it; the markings are in English (no Chinese characters or anything like that.) The markings were extremely crappy looking, IDK if that is common with Norico firearms, or if this could be a copy-cat. The barrel did not seem like it was cut/modded in anyway. I do recall it had a mark that said "Arizona" or something like that, and it looked like it was marked the same as the "factory markings".

I am interested to know more about this gun, and if it is legal to own (for my friend's sake). He didn't seem to worried about the barrel length, but I think it could be an issue as it is definitely under 16in .

Any suggestions?

Well I talked to him today; and I suggested he try to find the person he got it from, hopefully he will get this worked out.... Y'all confirmed my suspicions, thanks for the advice.
 
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First suggestion would be to have your friend divest himself of it in the nearest, deepest ocean trench he can find.

The suggestion that I probably shouldn't make; would be to either have your friend start paperwork for his new SBR, or to have a Very friendly gunsmith permanently attach a long enough flash hider.
 
There were no factory short barrels imported into the US for civilian consumption. That would be a violation of GCA '68. On top of that, shortening an ak barrel requires significant reworking of the gas block. My guess is you measured wrong.
 
If your friend had a legally registered Title II Short Barreled Rifle, he'd darned well know that fact.

If you closed the bolt and ran a rod down the bore until it sat flat against the breech face, marked that rod at the muzzle -- and when you withdrew the rod you measured less than 16" from the end of the rod to the mark you made -- your friend has a very big problem.

Legally, there is no way he can make that rifle legal, and it must be surrendered as contraband. Some folks will suggest a few options for converting it into a legal format, and you might be able to do so, physically, but there certainly are risks.

(Like for one, you show up at your gunsmith's shop requesting a permanently-affixed muzzle brake and he calls the ATF to turn you in, assuming he's being set up in a "sting.")

The risks involved are 10 years in jail, $250,000 in fines, and a felony record.

....

Having said all of that, a short-barreled AK is pretty unusual. It isn't just a matter of lopping off a few inches with a hacksaw, as Prince Yamato explained.
 
My guess is you measured wrong.
Click to expand...

Well like I said I measured both rifles with the chambers closed; I inserted a cleaning rod down the barrel until it would not go any farther. I did this first with the AR (which has a 16" barrel) and marked how deep it went on the rod. I repeated this with the AK and the 16" mark was almost 2" above the barrel.

How hard is that to screw up; seriously.

It isn't just a matter of lopping off a few inches with a hacksaw, as Prince Yamato explained
Click to expand...

It looked stock; the barrel was crowned and everything.
 
How hard is that to screw up; seriously.
Click to expand...

I dont mean this negatively in any way.....

The best possible outcome would be that you screwed up and there was a round in the chamber when you measured it.
 
wlemay said:
Well like I said I measured both rifles with the chambers closed; I inserted a cleaning rod down the barrel until it would not go any farther. I did this first with the AR (which has a 16" barrel) and marked how deep it went on the rod. I repeated this with the AK and the 16" mark was almost 2" above the barrel.

How hard is that to screw up; seriously.
Click to expand...

Pretty hard unless you bumped up against a squib.:D
 
I did this first with the AR (which has a 16" barrel) and marked how deep it went on the rod. I repeated this with the AK and the 16" mark was almost 2" above the barrel.
Click to expand...
Measure again carefully and measure against a yardstick.

I assumed my son's M4 measured 16 inches from breech face to end of the permanently attached flash hider, because that was how the upper was described when he bought it: 16" barrel. When I laid the marked off cleaning rod on a yard stick, it was 18". The barrel bore itself was 16" plus at least 2" for the flash hider.
 
I assumed my son's M4 measured 16 inches from breech face to end of the permanently attached flash hider, because that was how the upper was described when he bought it: 16" barrel. When I laid the marked off cleaning rod on a yard stick, it was 18". The barrel bore itself was 16" plus at least 2" for the flash hider.
Click to expand...

No flash hider on the barrel, I haven't had one on there in months.
 
It looked stock; the barrel was crowned and everything.
Click to expand...

Was there barrel space between the gas block and the front sight block? Or were they jammed tight together? Did the handguard and gas tube look "normal" or modified or short?

The reason I'm asking is that there's a standard way which the parts of an AK that mount to the barrel all relate to each other. Changing the length of the barrel causes some of them to have to change. Just trying to figure out what kind of variant or mod-job you might have seen.

Either way, if I did what you did, and measured what you measured, I'd be extremely hesitant to have anything to do with that gun again -- and I'd be trying to impress my pal that he has to do something to rectify his situation. NFA violations are no joke.
 
Too bad AK barrels must be pressed in or he could just remove and sell the current barrel and buy a legal replacement. I know AK barrel replacement can be done but one needs a proper press and the know-how.
 
Ehhh...it can be done with a hammer. But installing the new one and setting the headspace -- or compensating if the headspacing isn't correct -- does take some tools/know-how.

And in the meantime, he's in possession of a one-way ticket to a VERY bad life change.
 
Sam... what if he just removes the short barrel now and waits until he finds someone who can help him replace it? Seems like this could save him some real trouble.
 
Yup. That could work. If he's willing to toss the short barrel out, having the rest of the gun is no problem. It is a bit of work ... and he's STILL in possession of a world of hurt until he gets it done, but that would be one way out of trouble.

I'd probably do the flash-hider thing before I'd toss the barrel, but he might not have the skills or the tools for that either ... and, again, he's sitting on a heap of pain until it's fixed.

...

I'd be extremely curious where he even got such a thing. No gun dealer who's not insane would dare risk selling an unregistered Title II SBR to anyone -- certainly not some kid who just walked in off the street. They wouldn't even accept it as a purchase, as they'd know exactly what kind of trouble that could bring down on them.

I'd think it was a private sale from some bubba who'd just lopped it off, but that job takes enough skill and knowledge that I'd have to assume whoever did it would be knowledgeable of the risks -- and wouldn't just go sell something like that off. Maybe it was a private sale and someone was just looking to get rid of it and figured they could sell it to some young guy who wouldn't know any better and who they'd never see again. ...Ouch.
 
First off, I suspect that it isn't a norinco. wlemayare you 100% sure it's a norinco and not a Hungarian AMD 65 that someone assembled in an illegal format?

2nd, if he buys an AMD 65 compliance muzzle brake and welds it in place it's legal.

3rd, if he doesn't want to or can't do the work himself, he can demil the gun by cutting the reciever up with a torch or even a saw if he then destroys the piece he cuts out of it.
 
Well, he took the barrel off and is going to buy a legal one. he said he is going to destroy the barrel, and replace it with a legit 16in one.
 
You said it had a mark that said Arizona, could it be that someone is taking advantage of the firearms freedom act (might still be illegal under that act as i think it involved something with the gun having to be manufactured in that state)? I would still get rid of it though.
 
this whole thing seems strange. i'm betting the ar barrel is longer than you think and the ak is right at 16
 
Locally a guy bought a Model 12 Winchester pump shotgun from a police auction, discovered the barrel was under 18" and contacted ATF. ATF advised him to have a permanent barrrel extension added--Cutts Compensator, or just a section of steel tube. I got the impression that ATF wouldn't have a cow if the owner or a gunsmith made an illegally short barrel to legal length with a permanent extension; the problem would be if the owner got caught with the gun illegally short. There are ATF spex on what constitutes a permanent barrel extension. My short form (for what it's work) is that removal of a permanent extention would require cutting the metal.

Rebarrelling a hinge action shotgun often involves cutting the old wornout or pitted barrel at the front of the monobloc, reaming out the chamber(s) and soldering in new barrel tube(s). During the process you do have shotgun barrel of 3 or 4 inches for some point in time. Does ATF sit poised to raid gunsmiths known to work on shotguns in hopes of finding a temporarily illegally short barrel? I don't think so.

Searching the ATF FAQ on barrel extension got me this:
For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel. Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified firearm is not subject to the NFA. NOTE: an acceptable method for permanently installing a barrel extension is by gas or electric steel seam welding or the use of high temperature silver solder having a flow point of 1100 degrees Fahrenheit.
Click to expand...

The ATF FAQ on registered SBRs is interesting reading: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html
ATF Home: Firearms: Frequently Asked Questions: National Firearms Act (NFA) — Short Barreled Rifles and Shotguns
 
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Did you measure how long the barrel is or just compare? Your AR15 probably has a flashhider on that goes over 16 in because the barrel is measured at the end of the permanant barrel with a detachable flashhider unless its one of those 14.5 in barrels with a permantly attached flash suppressor.
 
This reply is long overdue. I made a mistake in my measurements; I am embarrassed to say it but for the longest time I thought my rifle had a 16inch barrel :banghead:. It turns out it is a 18.5in barrel... I never actually used a ruler and I guess I got burned for it... I gave my buddy a lot of crap about his Ak and looked like a fool on this forum. Sorry for all the complaining about nothing... I should have double checked my math before posting here.

My buddies Ak IS LEGAL. I jumped the gun and should have posted back sooner to say i was wrong... I figured I might as well do it now than never since this thread is here to stay.
 
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