professor0433
Member
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- Apr 18, 2003
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- 17
Saw in a recent G&A issue in Cooper's Corner that Norinco now offers its own version of the C96 Broomhandle. Anyone know anyting about this? I want one BAD!!!
Thanks
Dale
Thanks
Dale
Norinco "Broomhandle"?
- Thread starter professor0433
- Start date
- Status
I saw a Chinese 9mm detachable mag. broomhandle last October at an auction. Workmanship was passable but absolutely nothing in comparison to the original German made guns.
My advice is this in regrads to Norinco brand guns: Don't
Although some of the best AK's I ever shot and owned were made by the Chinese firm of Poly Tech some of the worst weapons were from Norinco including AK's and SKS's. I do not think their broomhandles would be much better if they are made to the same specs as their rifles and their once imported 1911.
In regards to their 1911 pistol only the frame and slide were worth saving being that they were of a good forging. Gunsmiths in my area did build up quite a few match guns on them but all the internal parts had to be thrown away because of poor machining and metalurgy.
If you want a good investment look around for an original broomhandle in very good condition. I picked one up 6 months ago for the paltry sum of only $1,200.00 and it was like new. It did take a lot of looking to get one at that price but compared to what they are making today , quality wise, it was a steal.
The original 7.62x25 cartridge is a real thrill to shoot being extrtemely accurate and very flat shooting and of very high velocity for a pistol cartridge. Despite all of the armchair ballyhoo that derides cartridges of this type they in my opinion were probably the equal of any of the bigger pistol cartridges having tremendous penetration, accuracy and reliablity in feeding due to their bottle neck design. I would not feel underarmed a bit with this cartridge with both soft point and full metal jacketed ammo.
Buying an original is a great investment as long as you do not destroy it by using corrosive ammo or too hot an ammo. A pistol of this type even though it is old will last you a life time if a little oil is put on it and reasonable loads are put through it. The original had workmanship as seen by few other makes of pistols that were manufactured at any time period in the history of the world and few pistols of this design will never be made again due to all the hand workmanship that must go into them if they are to be a quality piece and not just a look alike rip off.
If the Chinese firm of Poly Tech would ever make these pistols I would be very interested in getting one but would be very leary of anything made by Norinco.
A rousing and thrilling story of the Broomhandle when used in actual combat was this:
When retreating Communist forces were retreating from the Chinese Nationalist forces durning their civil war their escape route was blocked on the other side of a deep gorge by the Nationalist Chinese forces. The Communist forces sent a few of their fantatical members across the gorge hand over hand hanging on to a single strand of rope under murderous machine gun fire by the National Chinese forces. Upon reaching the other side of the gorge the Communist Troops armed withBroomhand pistols 7.62x25 wiped out the machine gun nests in short order to enable the Communist troops to get to the other side of the gorge to make their escape.Now if this is not rock solid proof that the 7.62x25 cartridge is a very deadly one even with fmj military bullests I do not know what would be.
My advice is this in regrads to Norinco brand guns: Don't
Although some of the best AK's I ever shot and owned were made by the Chinese firm of Poly Tech some of the worst weapons were from Norinco including AK's and SKS's. I do not think their broomhandles would be much better if they are made to the same specs as their rifles and their once imported 1911.
In regards to their 1911 pistol only the frame and slide were worth saving being that they were of a good forging. Gunsmiths in my area did build up quite a few match guns on them but all the internal parts had to be thrown away because of poor machining and metalurgy.
If you want a good investment look around for an original broomhandle in very good condition. I picked one up 6 months ago for the paltry sum of only $1,200.00 and it was like new. It did take a lot of looking to get one at that price but compared to what they are making today , quality wise, it was a steal.
The original 7.62x25 cartridge is a real thrill to shoot being extrtemely accurate and very flat shooting and of very high velocity for a pistol cartridge. Despite all of the armchair ballyhoo that derides cartridges of this type they in my opinion were probably the equal of any of the bigger pistol cartridges having tremendous penetration, accuracy and reliablity in feeding due to their bottle neck design. I would not feel underarmed a bit with this cartridge with both soft point and full metal jacketed ammo.
Buying an original is a great investment as long as you do not destroy it by using corrosive ammo or too hot an ammo. A pistol of this type even though it is old will last you a life time if a little oil is put on it and reasonable loads are put through it. The original had workmanship as seen by few other makes of pistols that were manufactured at any time period in the history of the world and few pistols of this design will never be made again due to all the hand workmanship that must go into them if they are to be a quality piece and not just a look alike rip off.
If the Chinese firm of Poly Tech would ever make these pistols I would be very interested in getting one but would be very leary of anything made by Norinco.
A rousing and thrilling story of the Broomhandle when used in actual combat was this:
When retreating Communist forces were retreating from the Chinese Nationalist forces durning their civil war their escape route was blocked on the other side of a deep gorge by the Nationalist Chinese forces. The Communist forces sent a few of their fantatical members across the gorge hand over hand hanging on to a single strand of rope under murderous machine gun fire by the National Chinese forces. Upon reaching the other side of the gorge the Communist Troops armed withBroomhand pistols 7.62x25 wiped out the machine gun nests in short order to enable the Communist troops to get to the other side of the gorge to make their escape.Now if this is not rock solid proof that the 7.62x25 cartridge is a very deadly one even with fmj military bullests I do not know what would be.
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Roadkill Coyote
Member
Read the same thing, immediately called a buddy who was going to the SHOT show. After hitting up everybody and their brother about it, he concluded its not gonna happen.
Selfdfenz
Member
I have a Norinco 1911 and could not agree less with BHP.
It's accurate, shoots everything I feed it and has a fair trigger.
The machining inside the gun is crude but who cares.
She is as stock as a quarter horse and I have thousands of rounds through that gun. Original springs and all. Every gun guru I know has told me Norinco Springs are worthless but of the three Norincos I've owned I have yet to replace spring one.
I wish I had known how good these guns were when they were selling for 200 bucks and dealers couldn't sell em. I'd have bought 10. If they ever start importing them again (we'd need a miracle) and they are cheap but built like the one I have I WILL buy 10.
Rumor has it the Wilson used them as the base for some of their work when they were commonly available in the US.
I also have a ATD 22 copy of the Browning 22. All of the above applies.
Neither are available for import any more sadly.
Possibly others that have owned Norinco will ahve had different experiences but these are mine with stuff I actually own/ed.
Have not seen the broomhandle but if it come ashore which I doubt will every happen I will give it a look see.
BTW. The 1911 and the SKS rifles were produced by the Chinese army as the rumor I have heard goes. Precision they are not. Work they will. Had one of the SKS rifles and it was boringly dependable and sturdy. Had a really nice piece of pine on it.
Good luck.
It's accurate, shoots everything I feed it and has a fair trigger.
The machining inside the gun is crude but who cares.
She is as stock as a quarter horse and I have thousands of rounds through that gun. Original springs and all. Every gun guru I know has told me Norinco Springs are worthless but of the three Norincos I've owned I have yet to replace spring one.
I wish I had known how good these guns were when they were selling for 200 bucks and dealers couldn't sell em. I'd have bought 10. If they ever start importing them again (we'd need a miracle) and they are cheap but built like the one I have I WILL buy 10.
Rumor has it the Wilson used them as the base for some of their work when they were commonly available in the US.
I also have a ATD 22 copy of the Browning 22. All of the above applies.
Neither are available for import any more sadly.
Possibly others that have owned Norinco will ahve had different experiences but these are mine with stuff I actually own/ed.
Have not seen the broomhandle but if it come ashore which I doubt will every happen I will give it a look see.
BTW. The 1911 and the SKS rifles were produced by the Chinese army as the rumor I have heard goes. Precision they are not. Work they will. Had one of the SKS rifles and it was boringly dependable and sturdy. Had a really nice piece of pine on it.
Good luck.
Tamara
Senior Member
I just find it amusing that anyone would rant and rave over the supposed quality differences between "Polytech" and "Norinco" when both are just different importer's names for products of the same factories run by the Chinese army.
(AFAIK, the "Polytech" name was coined for the importation of Chinee-made milled-receiver AK's to distinguish them from Chinee-made stamped-receiver AK's, nothing more. They're all made in factories run by the Chinese army/gov't... )
(AFAIK, the "Polytech" name was coined for the importation of Chinee-made milled-receiver AK's to distinguish them from Chinee-made stamped-receiver AK's, nothing more. They're all made in factories run by the Chinese army/gov't...
)TooTaxed
Member
Norinco .45s
Gotta say...my Norinco .45s are about the best buy I've ever made...extremely (and unexpectably!) both accurate and reliable with a wide range of bullet types. I shoot one far more than any other of my many guns, and have laid another one in storage for the future... No repairs necessary to date.
Gotta say...my Norinco .45s are about the best buy I've ever made...extremely (and unexpectably!) both accurate and reliable with a wide range of bullet types. I shoot one far more than any other of my many guns, and have laid another one in storage for the future... No repairs necessary to date.
Sven
Senior Member
Oh... Hand_Rifle_Guy... this thread has your name all over it.
Boy Tamara am I laughing over this post. TAke a look inside a Poly Tech AK sometime and see the design differences.
Ok let me educate you.
1. The Poy tech hand a spring loaded firing pin to held prevent slam fires so common in the Ak familiy of weapons. I have never to date seen a Norico that did.
2. The Hammer was double heat treated. Look at the color of the Ploy Tech hammer and if you are familiar with what a part looks like that has been heat treated its a dead giveaway. The Poly tech heat treated hammers had the same heat treatment that was used in full auto guns. Norinco's did not they were built to commercial semi-auto specs.
3. The hammer spring was wound in a different position and configuration for a better and smoother trigger pull. Any one who has ever fired a Poly tech AK will tell you the difference in the trigger pulls.
4. Poly Tech AK's were made to Chinese military specs while Norinco guns were commercial guns made for commercial sales. If you look closely at Norinco guns many had castings and stampings used in their construction. You will find mostly forgings in the Poly Tech SKS guns.
5. Anyone who can still see reasonable well can at a glance differenciate between the quality of workmanship and materiels used in construction both internaly and externally between these two manufactures.
If indeed it was the same company (and collectors tell me that they were not) the only thing I can tell you is that they must have had prisoners making the Norinco guns out of old pots and pans while on the other hand they employed the best and brightest skilled Chinese machinests making the Poly Tech guns.
I would put a Poly Tech gun up agains any AK or SKs made by any other country.
My SKs that was made for the Chinese military was first class all the way and My forged frame Poly Tech takes not even a back seat to a Finnish Valmet and thats saying a lot.
And this is why Poly Tech guns bring more in resale value.
"And now you know the rest of the story" Good day!
Tamara
Senior Member
BHP9,
Is this gonna be another "education" like how 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer brass can be re-formed into 5.45x39? If so, I can live without another one of those...
*snicker*
To save you some humiliation (having owned a few and sold dozens to hundreds of both) let me educate you:
A "Polytech" AK is a milled receiver AK made in Chinese Army-owned factories and sold in the US.
A "Norinco" AK is a stamped receiver AK made in Chinese Army-owned factories and sold in the US.
Believe what you want to believe, man; it doesn't change the facts a whit.
Yes, there are some design detail differences between an AK and an AKM, but to think that the imported Chicom guns were "made by different companies" with "different standards of quality control" is the height of naiveté. They were made by the same organisation, perhaps in two buildings across the street from each other. When a shop building those "awesome" Polytech AK's finished a run, it probably turned around and built those "awful" Norinco 1911's...
Is this gonna be another "education" like how 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoenauer brass can be re-formed into 5.45x39? If so, I can live without another one of those...
*snicker*
To save you some humiliation (having owned a few and sold dozens to hundreds of both) let me educate you:
A "Polytech" AK is a milled receiver AK made in Chinese Army-owned factories and sold in the US.
A "Norinco" AK is a stamped receiver AK made in Chinese Army-owned factories and sold in the US.
Believe what you want to believe, man; it doesn't change the facts a whit.
Yes, there are some design detail differences between an AK and an AKM, but to think that the imported Chicom guns were "made by different companies" with "different standards of quality control" is the height of naiveté. They were made by the same organisation, perhaps in two buildings across the street from each other. When a shop building those "awesome" Polytech AK's finished a run, it probably turned around and built those "awful" Norinco 1911's...
Hell, NORINCO makes tanks too. As has been mentioned, this is a state-run conglomerate that is into a little bit of everything.
Were there to be a difference, it would be because the folks in People's Weapons Factory #1 didn't spend as much time in "re-education" camp as the workers in in People's Weapons Factory #2 and slack off more. That'll change.
NORINCO/Polytech, from the sound of it, may make the best M-14 style receivers going, though everything else about the rifle sucks.
Were there to be a difference, it would be because the folks in People's Weapons Factory #1 didn't spend as much time in "re-education" camp as the workers in in People's Weapons Factory #2 and slack off more. That'll change.
NORINCO/Polytech, from the sound of it, may make the best M-14 style receivers going, though everything else about the rifle sucks.
Stephen A. Camp
Moderator In Memoriam
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,430
Hello. I certainly cannot comment to the information concerning the AKs nor the broomhandle, but will state that I've had very satisfactory results with the Norinco 1911 I bought. It had been previously owned and fired a bit, but not much, and the price was right.
I did change out some parts, using what I had in my parts bin with the exception of some King's Hardballer rear sights I had added by a gunsmith. Also had him silversolder a Bomar front sight of the correct height for where my pistol's POI was relative to POA. Parts like the thumb safety, magazine release, grip screws and slide release were changed for "looks." The flat mainspring housing and long trigger were done as I just like 1911s that way in most cases. The hammer and sear were changed out as I was able to get a really clean trigger pull and prefer the ring hammer with the drop-in Pachmayr beavertail grip safety now on the pistol.
Here's the old thing:
The beavertail shown is the Wilson drop-in part, but I changed it out and prefer the one in it now. Both work fine.
Forgot I had a picture of it with the Pachmayr.
This 1911's been fired around 2K times now with exactly zero malfunctions EXCEPT for one light target handload that didn't have enough "oomph" to operate the slide properly. With standard pressure ball or any JHP or CSWC loads I've tried, reliability's been 100%.
It won't group with an STI or a fine custom gun, but it shoots just fine for 99% of the uses that most shooters might have for it and 100% of my personal needs.
It does sufficently, accuracy-wise, for me....
This 25 yard target was fired using handloads and was fired from a rest.
Some 10-shot groups @ 15 yards...
I like the thing. I did change out some parts, but do appreciate no forward slide serrations and kind of like the "old fashioned" vertical rear slide serrations. I did make some parts changes with many being for "looks" rather than "needs," but as a 1911 shooter, I couldn't help it. Many of us wind up changing some things out or having custom work done on 1911s, be they Norinco or Colt, Kimber, STI, or Springfield, etc.
Best and good shooting.
I did change out some parts, using what I had in my parts bin with the exception of some King's Hardballer rear sights I had added by a gunsmith. Also had him silversolder a Bomar front sight of the correct height for where my pistol's POI was relative to POA. Parts like the thumb safety, magazine release, grip screws and slide release were changed for "looks." The flat mainspring housing and long trigger were done as I just like 1911s that way in most cases. The hammer and sear were changed out as I was able to get a really clean trigger pull and prefer the ring hammer with the drop-in Pachmayr beavertail grip safety now on the pistol.
Here's the old thing:
The beavertail shown is the Wilson drop-in part, but I changed it out and prefer the one in it now. Both work fine.
Forgot I had a picture of it with the Pachmayr.
This 1911's been fired around 2K times now with exactly zero malfunctions EXCEPT for one light target handload that didn't have enough "oomph" to operate the slide properly. With standard pressure ball or any JHP or CSWC loads I've tried, reliability's been 100%.
It won't group with an STI or a fine custom gun, but it shoots just fine for 99% of the uses that most shooters might have for it and 100% of my personal needs.
It does sufficently, accuracy-wise, for me....
This 25 yard target was fired using handloads and was fired from a rest.
Some 10-shot groups @ 15 yards...
I like the thing. I did change out some parts, but do appreciate no forward slide serrations and kind of like the "old fashioned" vertical rear slide serrations. I did make some parts changes with many being for "looks" rather than "needs," but as a 1911 shooter, I couldn't help it. Many of us wind up changing some things out or having custom work done on 1911s, be they Norinco or Colt, Kimber, STI, or Springfield, etc.
Best and good shooting.
Not quite correct again. Poly Tech also made stamped AK's and the Legend milled receiver was marketed much later and in much smaller numbers and was much more expensive than their stamped model that by the way also had some excellent workmanship. Unlike some Ak's that left the bolt unfinished in the white the Poly Tech's were chromed for corrosion resistance from the elements and the devastating affects of corrosive ammo.
My very first Ak was a Norinco and although the gun was functional it was not even in the same ball park as the Poly Tech legend AK that I bought later on.
One other think that I though sure you would hit me back on was the fact that Norinico did indeed make mill spec guns but they made them for the Chinese Army and not for commercial sale to the U.S. The guns that were sold in the U.S. once again were commercial grade weapons that were not built to military specs. If they had been they would never have been able to undersell everyone in the Ak and SKS market. The average buyer of course did not know the difference and was happy as long as the gun went bang. And if you are not a collector I guess this was all to the good.
Did you know that at one time the dealers were selling SKS Norinco's for $65.00 each out the door. Sounds unbelievable but they did and were even making money on them.
The Poly TEch guns always were more expensive due to the fact that they not only had better workmanship but also were built to Mill Spec. This was one of the big advertisement campains that Poly Tech mounted with full color page adds that listed the many ways that their guns differed from other brands but their advertisements were basically geared toward putting down the Norinco brand guns. Norinco of course could not respond because they were basically making a commercial grade weapon.
Don't misunderstand me, I do not consider the Norinco's junk but many were very shoddily made. I still have one of the rare Norinco SKS rifles with a steel magazine well and this model was designed to use the original 30 round AK mags but strangely enough did not except original AK 20 rounders. The gun itself is the crudest of the Norico SKS series of rifles. Their standard SKs was much nicer in finish but once again the detachable mag model brings much more money because of its rarity and high capacity. Thats the only reason I kept it. I got rid of the Norinco Ak to upgrade my collection to the Legend.
Norinco by the way also made a side folder that is also very rare. I also had one of these and I wish I would have kept that one. Not for its workmanship but because of its rarity.
Selfdfenz
Member
"Did you know that at one time the dealers were selling SKS Norinco's for $65.00 each out the door. Sounds unbelievable but they did and were even making money on them."
I sure would. That's about what I paid for mine NIB with the sling,
cart. belt /harness and the other odds and ends that came with em back in the day.
All the "stuff"was new too.
BTW, for an all purpose, cheap but durable sling, those green ChiCon ones are about the best going. Not too correct for a DCM match but for a dunk hunting shotgun and knock about rifle they are darn near indestructable and about 3 bucks.
Take care,
S-
I sure would. That's about what I paid for mine NIB with the sling,
cart. belt /harness and the other odds and ends that came with em back in the day.
All the "stuff"was new too.
BTW, for an all purpose, cheap but durable sling, those green ChiCon ones are about the best going. Not too correct for a DCM match but for a dunk hunting shotgun and knock about rifle they are darn near indestructable and about 3 bucks.
Take care,
S-
George Hill
Member
BHP9, that has nothing to do with the fact that it's still a Chinese Government - meaning China's Military - owned outfit. Meaning the same people in charge... meaning it might as well be the same company.
Think FORD and MERCURY.
Think FORD and MERCURY.
Grayrider
Member
Isn't this discussion moot given that Norinco handguns cannot be imported into the US as per Clinton's exec order? Otherwise we would be buried in Norinco 1911s.
GR
GR
I would have to agree with Grayrider.
I live in Canada and have been looking over a firearms distributer called Marstar Canada (marstar.ca for those who are curious) who deals directly in selling Norico firearms. As I am relatively new to shooting and only recieved my firearms licence roughly 2 yrs ago I will not comment to much on the subject at hand. I can however point out that on the site mentioned above it clearly states that no Norico firearms can be imported into the United States as a result of the embargo.
This is a real lose for American gun lovers as Norico firearms, as some one has already mentioned, are extremely cheap. The 1911 sells for as little as $325 Canadian.
With that said I am considering purchasing one of there Norinco N-SKS 'Type 56' 7.62x39mm SKS Rifle models. The price is a mere $139 Canadian. Or possibly there Norinco M-14S 'GI Rifle' 7.62x51mm for $399 Canadian. As it would appear there are a large number of experienced and well informed shooters here I was hoping for some personal opinions on whether or not either of these guns is worth the buy for either target shooting or hunting (once I recieve my hunting licence later this summer).
Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
I live in Canada and have been looking over a firearms distributer called Marstar Canada (marstar.ca for those who are curious) who deals directly in selling Norico firearms. As I am relatively new to shooting and only recieved my firearms licence roughly 2 yrs ago I will not comment to much on the subject at hand. I can however point out that on the site mentioned above it clearly states that no Norico firearms can be imported into the United States as a result of the embargo.
This is a real lose for American gun lovers as Norico firearms, as some one has already mentioned, are extremely cheap. The 1911 sells for as little as $325 Canadian.
With that said I am considering purchasing one of there Norinco N-SKS 'Type 56' 7.62x39mm SKS Rifle models. The price is a mere $139 Canadian. Or possibly there Norinco M-14S 'GI Rifle' 7.62x51mm for $399 Canadian. As it would appear there are a large number of experienced and well informed shooters here I was hoping for some personal opinions on whether or not either of these guns is worth the buy for either target shooting or hunting (once I recieve my hunting licence later this summer).
Any feed back would be greatly appreciated.
LexusNexus
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2006
- Messages
- 73
There's nothing really wrong with these Chinese Broomhandles. They could improve on the workmanship, but otherwise the gun's very functional. Original German Mausers are obviously a cut above in terms of finish and machining. By the way, these Chinese c96 are not really Norinco. They're supposedly remanufactured using original German broomhandle parts. In particular, some Chinese 9mm have 20rd mags and very unique looking. There's also the .45cal ones but those are too bulky to be practical.
TooTaxed
Member
I hope that ban on Chinese imports gets rescinded...would like to have Polytechs and Norincos readily available again.
The Chinese military has, after thoroughly and critically testing the Russian AKs in 5.56 and 7.62 x39, and the American M16 family, developed a more efficient short cartridge and family of small arms for it, and are equipping their army with same.
The Chinese military has, after thoroughly and critically testing the Russian AKs in 5.56 and 7.62 x39, and the American M16 family, developed a more efficient short cartridge and family of small arms for it, and are equipping their army with same.
Sgt Stevo
Member
I have put over 1,000 Rounds downrange in my chini-sks. And never cleaned it.
It still works fine. I kinda just never got around to it. I had Norinco Ak, it was fine. But I sold it before the ban came along.:banghead:
It still works fine. I kinda just never got around to it. I had Norinco Ak, it was fine. But I sold it before the ban came along.:banghead:
wally
Member
Mr. Camp, nice to see another shooter using the Rucker 200gr lead SWC, I've been reloading and shooting his bullets since the mid 80s.
--wally.
--wally.
Stephen A. Camp
Moderator In Memoriam
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 2,430
Hello, Wally. I have literally shot tons of the Rucker when I quit casting. Lately, I've abandoned Rucker and gone with the Precision coated 200-gr. CSWC over 5.0-gr. Bullseye. Accuracy is exceptional in a number of 1911 pistols I've shot it in.
Best.
Best.
wally
Member
Thanks, that's good info about the Precision coated bullets as lately Mr Rucker has not been bringing enough lead with him to the gun shows to keep me supplied and he doesn't do internet or Email at all.
--wally.
--wally.
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