North Hollywood shootouts rewind

[Double Naught Spy]

Since head shots are so easy, I have an invitation for you amazing pistol shooters. I have a head sized moving target called a Shafffer Shifter that we will start out moving at a brisk walk speed. We will set you up at 75 yards and put you on a timer. Every time the tone sounds, you will have 3 seconds to lean out from behind cover, find the target, sight the head, and fire. Since it is an easy shot, there won't be any warmup. Plus, you will sprint 150 yards before going behind the barricade, just to get your heart rate up. We will repeat this drill 9 times ever 5 seconds and see how many hits you get.

For those who shot the ISHOT1000 at the end of April, you know what target I am talking about and what difficulties you had hitting it even after working on head shots for much of the day and getting to stand in your preferred position to take your shots.

No, of course it isn't like real battle, but it should be a hell of a lot easier since nobody is shooting at you, right? So I would expect several hits from the first 10 shots of each of the claimed great shooters who can hit head sized targets so well at those distances.

Just PM me about coming out!

 

[VonFireball]

One citizen, properly armed with a 7mm mag bolt rifle..........

And the cops all reached for AR's......

Yeah, let's fill the air with lead and hit nothing, just put a bunch of bystanders at greater risk.

Those idiots who robbed the joint weren't even aiming.

One citizen, properly armed with a 7mm mag bolt rifle.........

Two shots.

 

[walking arsenal]

I don't think that a lot of people were standing around watching this thing. Gun fights typically aren't spectator sports.

And it's funny how many people are implying that the cops wouldn't be accurate with an AR, a popular varmint rifle, though I can see how it would be tempting to just toss it up over a wall and empty the mag in the general direction of the threat.

Problem is, they have to watch what and who they are using for a backstop too.

I'm sure they wouldn't want to shoot another cop or the people inside the bank.

A bolt gun, while accurate, would be more likely to penetrate a lot more things than a 5.56 round would.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I don't know why everyone thinks the police were inadequately armed. Suppose 99% of the time a cop doesn't need his weapon. When he does need a weapon, his sidearm is adequate 99% of the time. So do you equip every cruiser in LA with a weapon that is unnecessary 9,999 out of 10,000 calls? No, that's what SWAT is for. And that's what happened here. They called in SWAT, and the result is the only two dead were the suspects. I can't realistically imagine a better outcome.

Blackbeard,
Well said. Only so much money in the city for Police and Fire folks. For many years the SWAT folks supplied there own various Semi Autos. Some still pay have to buy certain handguns (Glock mdl 21) though later they were reimbursed.

The .223/.224 bullet, is a very good round for going through the kind of bullet proof items they were wearing.

Was as good as it gets considering the firepower those guys came to the fight with.

Regards

 

[glockman19]

Double Naught Spy,

I'd be happy to take you up on the offer. I did state however, that I would be using a bolt action rifle chambered in .30 caliber either .308 or .30-06. I agree that with a handgun the shot would be much more difficult but I'd also feel confident with a S&W .44 mag revolver 5" barrel or lever action rifle Marlin 1894SS .44 mag.
I'll go so far as to say I'll hit the target at least 3 of 5 times, with my hunting rifle, Remington 700 CDL .30-06 1.5-2" moa @ 200 yards, or M1A Loaded >1" moa @ 100 yards in less than 30 seconds.

I'll let you know when I come to texas to visit friends in the DFW area, Rowlett.

 

[VonFireball]

I don't think that a lot of people were standing around watching this thing.

It took place near a residential area.

How could they have missed it? Most of them were probably at work or hiding. I don't blame them........but......the fact remains.

One citizen, well armed with a 7mm magnum bolt rifle. Window seat.

One shot, well placed, to the vitals.

Probably would get you into trouble. Wouldn't want to make it seem like civilians are more capable than police.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I can see it now, citizen working on his roof 400 feet away and sees the shooting going on, crawls down his ladder gets his hunting gun (just came back from Colorado and got his elk knows it is zeroed in) gets back up on his roof and kills the bad guy with one shot

Great story, nice thought

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

come on glockman the offer was for a great pistoleer to make the shots like someone whose online name is that of a pistol. if you can't make the pistol shot say so. no one will be surprised

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

end of story guy in window gets one in his ear when a cop either sees the gun barrel or responds to the shot. never works out the same as on the video game.

i think double naughts scene is too easy we need someone to throw rounds by their ears while they shoot. throw broken glass at em ler can't figure how to simulate knowing a friend is bleeding to death whle you work but thats over the top

 

[rainbowbob]

These gun shop commando claims are very amusing. Keep 'em commin'!

Anybody else here who would have made the "Shot heard round the world" - if only they'd have been there instead of those incompetent LEOs?

 

[glockman19]

cassandrasdaddy,

I already admitted with a pistol it would be a difficult shot. Obviously, with as many rounds as were fired with no success.

rainbowbob,

if only they'd have been there instead of those incompetent LEOs?

Not incompetent but certianly without a well scoped rifle. A tool that they should have had. Even when they raided B&B Guns they took AR's, Even the standard iron sights on a M1A would have made the shot out to 300 yards IMHO. And the round is much more effective against the body armor they were wearing.

 

[M47 Dragon]

One citizen, well armed with a 7mm magnum bolt rifle. Window seat.

One shot, well placed, to the vitals.

Probably would get you into trouble. Wouldn't want to make it seem like civilians are more capable than police.

end of story guy in window gets one in his ear when a cop either sees the gun barrel or responds to the shot. never works out the same as on the video game.

Totally different situation, but armed citizens were a big help to police in the University of Texas tower shooting. It can happen... but that was Texas.

I work out in the san fernando valley and have passed that location many times. As soon as i get a chance i think i will stop by and take some pictures. We can have some pics of how it looks today. Might be able to still find bullet holes. I wouldnt doubt it.

I live in the SFV. I had driven within a block of that bank about a half-hour before it all went down.
Went to the same bank to use the ATM a couple of years ago, could still see chunks missing out of the lighting standards on the sidewalk.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Double Naught Spy,

I'd be happy to take you up on the offer. I did state however, that I would be using a bolt action rifle chambered in .30 caliber either .308 or .30-06. I agree that with a handgun the shot would be much more difficult but I'd also feel confident with a S&W .44 mag revolver 5" barrel or lever action rifle Marlin 1894SS .44 mag.
I'll go so far as to say I'll hit the target at least 3 of 5 times, with my hunting rifle, Remington 700 CDL .30-06 1.5-2" moa @ 200 yards, or M1A Loaded >1" moa @ 100 yards in less than 30 seconds.

I'll let you know when I come to texas to visit friends in the DFW area, Rowlett.

Big deal. Me too, but those are the constraints of the test or what the cops had available.

The claim is with pistols. I want to see folks do it with a pistol like the cops had for the shootout. People like to talk big about how the cops should have made those shots, but after running about 50 people through trying to get them to just hit the moving target at distance, most door anywhere from poor to extremely poorly.

Sure, anyone can claim to make the shot when they get to choose the parameters, but the cops weren't getting to choose to make the parameters of the fight, were they?

Therein is the rub. Unless you are the one who starts the fight, chances are you don't get to choose the parameters.

My invitation still stands to pistol shooters. I'll even buy lunch and video your shooting prowess.

 

[glockman19]

Sure, anyone can claim to make the shot when they get to choose the parameters, but the cops weren't getting to choose to make the parameters of the fight, were they?

Yes, They raided the gun shop down the street and even then either didn't choose the right tool or weren't trained to use them.

AS Lonegunman has already stated:

There was a gun store nearby, the cops ran there to ask for weapons and ammo. They asked for AR's or something to blast back with as many unaimed rounds as possible. NOT ONE cop asked for a 30-06, 300 win mag or any high powered rifle.

OP's topic IIRC is about the effectiveness of Slugs that day and shotguns.

 

[B.D. Turner]

It is my understanding that the LAPD officers who arrived first only had the issued #4 buckshot available to them as it was the standard load for the department shotguns. Had these officers been issued slugs as an optional round this whole incident could have only been a blip on the screen of daily events and not such a tragedy. A brave well trained officer is only as good as his tools.

 

[glockman19]

It is my understanding that the LAPD officers who arrived first only had the issued #4 buckshot

Yes it is the standard issue.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

would slugs punch the armor they wore? i examined some armor like that didn't think it would be bothered by slugs

 

[Thernlund]

If these two had came across a squad of infantry, they would have smoked them in about 15 seconds.

I think this is the most accurate comment on this thread. I wonder why this would be? Better armament? Better/different training? I'm in the camp that says LE biffed it on this one. No way this should have gone on for 4 minutes, much less 44.

I can see the "They don't want to hit civies" comment coming. Whatever. Civilians have this weird habit of running away when the SHTF as with the NH Shootout. Unless some cop was running in circles firing his pistol wildly in all directions, this is unlikely.

I didn't read the whole thread. I spent more time rolling my eyes than looking at the screen. To quote an unnamed moderator... more heat than light.


-T.

EDIT: I mean really, close your eyes and imagine it. Whos going to end this situation faster?

These guys?

Or these guys?

LE needs better tactical training and better equipment.

 

[B.D. Turner]

If a police department does not trust its officers with 1oz slugs why do they trust the officers with an AR15? I worked for a department that would only issue slugs to supervisors. I do not need slugs at an office when my butt is in the fire. This is a silly policy beyond understanding.

Slugs may not penetrate the body armor but the energy would cause massive blunt trauma injury.

 

[P95loser]

One thing I think everyone is forgetting here is not only did these guys have body armor covering their chests, but also had taken chest vests and modified them to fit their groin/upper legs. They also took phenobarbital to help calm them. I am going to speculate they took the barbituate in a heavy dose, which would further reduce the effects of "blunt force trauma" from bullets hitting their vests.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yes, They raided the gun shop down the street and even then either didn't choose the right tool or weren't trained to use them.

Those guns didn't make it into the fight and so it doesn't matter. Even if they had, the guns were sighted. Hitting a head at 75 or 125 yards with a gun that may or may not be on paper at 50 would be tough.

would slugs punch the armor they wore? i examined some armor like that didn't think it would be bothered by slugs

IIIa soft armor will stop most slugs at a few feet from a 12 ga. Some slugs like Brenneke are more likely to punch through. Some sabot rounds will as well. Many slugs don't. See the data table and ballistic wheel on post #16 here...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=349721&highlight=ballistic+wheel

Slugs may not penetrate the body armor but the energy would cause massive blunt trauma injury.

I would not count on it. glockman19 said he looked at the armor and can comment first hand. From the images I saw of it, the torso was doubled up. In other words, the first layer would catch and spread out the energy and the underlying layer would distribute the energy further. It is quite possible the energy would have been spread out over a larger area than the shotgun's buttstock contact surface, hence doing as less harm to the shootee than the shooter. On top of that, at 1 oz slug starting off at 1200 fps and 1400 ft lbs. is down to about 750 fps and 538 ft lbs. at just 50 yards. Just imagine how little energy there would be at 75 and 125.
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=WL12RS&bn=18&use=26

Yeah, I picked a light load as the cops likely weren't going to be using anything too powerful, but the point is still there.

 

[Leanwolf]

I love all this "hindsight = 20-20 vision chairborne tactical shoulda-woulda-coulda" nonsense stuff, too!

Not one person here, was THERE that day, including me... but... I was close.

I heard the first report on a "breaking news" radio interruption and as I lived about 12 blocks from the shootout, went outside and from my front yard could hear the poppity poppity pop pop shooting going on.

Went back in and turned on the teeeveee and watched it happening. No, I did not grab my well sighted in Rem. 700 .308 Win. and go hard charging over to the B of A parking lot to "take out the bad guys." (I'll add here that I was "sworn" with another department, so know a bit about L.E. procedures.)

As far as what the LAPD officers were armed with, the LAPD policy at that time, being very, very politically correct according to the dictates of a very politically correct Chief of Police, extreme left wing LAPD Police Commission, and Mayor, other than LAPD SWAT officers, rifles were not even allowed in the various Divisions of LAPD.

So blame the polticially correct LAPD C. of P., LAPD Police Commission, the extreme left wing mayor, plus all the standard left wing do-right-daddies and mommas who run politics in Los Angeles. Do not blame those officers. (And by the way, I know two officers who WERE there that day and they would give you chairborne warriors a different perspective, were you to talk to them.)

Also, as for the "raiding a nearby gunstore," that is b.s. of the first water! I have been in B&B Gun Sales hundreds of times, bought many guns from co-owners Barry and Bob Kahn, and know for a fact that the reason the LAPD North Hollywood Div. Sgt. who went there was because there was not a rifle at the N.H. Div. station, and he was a personal friend of Bob Kahn's. That is why he went to the store to get a couple of ARs, etc.

Those ARs were NEVER used in the shootout as it was over by the time the Sgt. got back to the incident.

As for the one shooter "bleeding to death" 'cause the evil LAPD just let him bleed out, etc., ad nauseum, that is more liberal b.s. The scene was not secure, and the officers had no idea how many other shooters might be in the area. PLUS, there were officers shot and down, and the LAPD officers had abit more concern about their brother and sister officers who were wounded than for some low life scum bag would be murderer who had shot a bunch of cops!

Oh well, chairborne warriors abound, so go right on ahead and think how you'd have just used your department Beretta 92FS to take one good shot through the bad guy's brain pan and it would be all over.

Makes for a great Mel Gibson movie scenario.

L.W.

 

[rainbowbob]

...chairborne tactical...

Thanks L.W. Love that term! It sounds like you may actually have the closest to a clue as to what went down that day - as opposed to the "speculations" of others here. It does make for an entertaining thread - although perhaps not intentionally so.

Went back in and turned on the teeeveee and watched it happening. No, I did not grab my well sighted in Rem. 700 .308 Win. and go hard charging over to the B of A parking lot to "take out the bad guys."

You also seem to be one of the few with a clue as to what NOT to do when one hears gunfire.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Thernlund,
Which would make you feel more secure, the squad or a couple of guys trying to keep the peace After all the job that day got done and only the bad guys died.

Leanwolf I retired "114" How about you? I still have property in 15 area.
B&B is long gone. Was Right down the street from the new location and around the corner of my property.

Regards,
Tinman

 

[Checkman]

Thernlund

Cops are not infantrymen. Considering how many threads are on THR about how the cops are too militarized nowdays I'm suprised anyone would suggest that cops aren't military enough.

And yes we do have to worry about not killing citizens. Civil lawsuits, job loss and possible criminal prosecutions being the least of it. You must also remember that the squad of young soldiers are fighting a war in a foreign nation. It is an entirely different situation.

Cops find themselves fighting bad guys in their town,city,state or county. There is a big difference.

Cops , like soldiers, also have to work with what they are given. The LAPD cops of 1997 had handguns and a few shotguns loaded with #4 buckshot. That was it.