North Hollywood shootouts rewind

[willbrink]

Opening the old time machine to look at the mess that was this bank robbery, on their radios, they were telling each other to shoot for the legs due to the body armor in hopes that would take them down I recall. They did have shotguns, and it always made sense to me they should have a box of slugs at least they can use under such conditions until the tac team shows up. That would be a an easy, fast, cost effective way to turn the tide a bit in such a fight. A slug may or may not go through the armor, but you will know you have been hit, which will keep your head down... For example, Hornady's has a slug H2K that delivers 2,664 ft/lbs. of muzzle energy. Armor or no, that's gonna get your attention...

Even better, why not simply give them a good sabot round? The Hornady makes .45 caliber, 300 grain XTP-Mag sabot bullet flat to 200 yards. Now you have something with real "stopping power" for an emergency situation like that, and don't scare the public by possibly issuing those evil black rifles, which cost $$$, and training. I know, simple, easy, cheap answers to problems is not in the lexicon on big PD departments and mil...

I don't recall reading anyone making that simple and obvious recommendation of issuing slugs and or sabot rnds for use under such situations. Thoughts or links?

 

[lonegunman]

Here are my thoughts.

125 cops or so responded and NONE of them could manage to return effective fire or surround TWO guys. The two guys fired about 90% of the total rounds fired that day.

There was a gun store nearby, the cops ran there to ask for weapons and ammo. They asked for AR's or something to blast back with as many unaimed rounds as possible. NOT ONE cop asked for a 30-06, 300 win mag or any high powered rifle.

One guy killed himself and the other bleed to death after being left in the street for 45 minutes and denied medical care by the LAPD.

While this was used as a rally cry and allowed cops to arm themselves to the teeth. The glaring problems of most cops were and still have never been addressed.

99% of police work does not involve a gun, much less firing a gun. 99% of cops can barely make a gun work,much less fire an accurate aimed shot at 75 yards. These guys never managed to fire a single co-ordinated volley in the direction of the bad guys, therefore they lost any advantage they had in numbers, angles and rate of fire.

A Beretta 92 is plenty accurate for shooting a head sized target at 100 yards, .40cal, 10mm, 45acp, 357mag and 9mm will all easily hit a man sized target in center mass at 100 yds with a little aiming. Shotguns with 00buck, would have caused plenty of injury at 50-75 yds if they were fired accurately.

Aiming for the gut(centermass), would have eventually resulted in enough leg, groin, neck and arm hits to stop these guys in short order. These guys were overwhelmed by noise, the badguys fire was inaccurate and ineffective in terms of the amount of damage and injury overall.

Having a gun does not mean you will do anything meaningful in a gunfight. You have to be willing to shoot the thing at people, knowing those people are going to probably shoot back at you.

Cops have different rules of engagement that the rest of us. Knowing you are going to get investigated, have to account for every round, get psych eval'd and possibly sued for collatorial damage makes it a little tougher to lay down fire than you might think.

If these two had came across a squad of infantry, they would have smoked them in about 15 seconds.

 

[kingpin008]

I think LoneGunman pretty much summed it up.

 

[Pilot]

Nice analysis Lonegunman.

 

[willbrink]

I agree with more or less with most of what you have here and make some solid points. However, the BGs were hit repeatedly (and you can see them react to those hits) but it had little effect on them, but at least we can say a few cops did get some hits in.

Your one quote however "A Beretta 92 is plenty accurate for shooting a head sized target at 100 yards." I'm a decent shot, far better than most police and such, and I could not make a head shot at 100yards with a Barreta under pressure while being shot at. I know several guys who are top level shots, who have been in gun fights, and I doubt very much they could predictably be expected to make a head shot under such conditions. I think that's a very unrealistic statement regardless of the training level of the cops, which I agree, is usually less than adequate when it comes to firearms proficiency.

Any way, with a tad more training, and good sabot rnds, you do have a low tech cost effective way to at least greatly improve the LEOs ability to fight back effectively until real help arrives.

 

[MarshallDodge]

One guy killed himself and the other bleed to death after being left in the street for 45 minutes and denied medical care by the LAPD.

My understanding was that it was more like 30 minutes and that the bad guy was not denied medical help but that they could not get ambulances into the area until the area was secured.

As far as the shooting goes, the police were not prepared for what happened. They had never been up against trained individuals wearing almost full body armor carrying fully automatic rifles. Just put a Barrett M82 in the trunk of every squad car, that should take care of almost anything.

The SWAT team was and probably still is the best option in this scenario. They have the weapons and the training.

 

[jerkface11]

Their legs and groin were armored. Of course one 000 pellet in the head will ruin your whole day. Then again if some of the cops had simply had a marlin 60 in their car it all would have been over pretty quickly.

 

[willbrink]

"They had never been up against trained individuals"

What training did they have? Where either ex mil?

 

[pdowg881]

Counter Strike training

 

[BruceRDucer]

Thank you Willbrink!

The Hornady makes .45 caliber, 300 grain XTP-Mag sabot bullet flat to 200 yards. Now you have something with real "stopping power" for an emergency situation like that, and don't scare the public by possibly issuing those evil black rifles, which cost $$$, and training.

Thank you Willbrink! gotta get that.

Did anybody ever tell you how SMART you are? LOL

 

[Colt46]

A headshot at 100 yds w/ a handgun?

In a raging gunfight I think you'd have to trust to luck. With the volume of fire coming from these two I suppose the LAPD were lucky things turned out as well as they did.
LAPD was totally unprepared for that kind of firepower and body armor. I believe the first shooter capped himself under the chin just when a sharpshooter's bullet severed his spine. I always have had a little trouble with that version. I've never seen any autopsy evidence so I can't be certain. It just strikes me as odd the guy killed himself at the same time a qualified marksman takes him down.
The second shooter bled to death while the LAPD denied treatment. Yeah, maybe. If I recall they still thought there was a least one more, possibly two shooters. Did they want to expose more medical personel to risk for that piece of crap? Command decision I guess.
The idea that the perp's family gets to be supported by the state for his criminal actions galls me no end.

 

[Sato Ord]

I always wondered why none of the LE folks bothered to just run those scumbags over. It might be interesting to show some of these morons who buy a surplus vest and then commit robbery how well that vest works when the local PD parks a Ford on your chest.

Of course if the cops did that some bleeding heart would take offense and there would then be a public outcry to have the officer who ran the dirt-wad over disciplined for excessive force.

 

[kingpin008]

What training did they have? Where either ex mil?

I can't find cites to confirm at the moment, but for the life of me, I'm sure that I remember hearing that one of the two (I want to say it was Phillips, but I can't remember for sure) was ex-military. Air Force, I think. If anyone could confirm or deny, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Wes Janson]

Your one quote however "A Beretta 92 is plenty accurate for shooting a head sized target at 100 yards." I'm a decent shot, far better than most police and such, and I could not make a head shot at 100yards with a Barreta under pressure while being shot at. I know several guys who are top level shots, who have been in gun fights, and I doubt very much they could predictably be expected to make a head shot under such conditions. I think that's a very unrealistic statement regardless of the training level of the cops, which I agree, is usually less than adequate when it comes to firearms proficiency.

I'd put my odds, personally, as being pretty low on being able to make a headshot at 100 yards with one round. Give me a couple magazines though, and the odds become significantly better. When you've got dozens and dozens of officers, all armed with dozens and dozens of rounds, it's simply just a matter of time.

I always wondered why none of the LE folks bothered to just run those scumbags over. It might be interesting to show some of these morons who buy a surplus vest and then commit robbery how well that vest works when the local PD parks a Ford on your chest.

Maybe because it's a great way to commit suicide-by-criminal; driving an SUV at someone with an AK and the will to use it is absolutely insane. Windshields don't do a very good job at deflecting rifle rounds, at least not well enough that I'd be willing to try such a stunt.

 

[willbrink]

"Did anybody ever tell you how SMART you are? LOL"

I don't follow the sarcasm. I might be stating the obvious for some, but believe me, it's not obvious to many out there who don't understand the realities o such issues.

 

[Jeff White]

Everyone in this thread who has been in a gunfight raise your hand!

Everyone in this thread who was at the Bank of America that day raise your hand!

lonegunman said;

99% of cops can barely make a gun work,much less fire an accurate aimed shot at 75 yards.

You got something like an NIJ study that shows this or are you just throwing out some wild speculation to create controversy? What's your personal experience with the state of firearms training in American law enforcement? Are you an instructor? Where? For how long? What certifications do you have?

Can you personally demonstrate this 100 yard head shot with a handgun under fire? Where and when did you perform this feat of marksmanship under fire. There certainly must be a news article you can point us to. Don't be bashful, stand up and take your cudos.

They asked for AR's or something to blast back with as many unaimed rounds as possible.

Source please? What proof do you have that the intent was to spray unaimed fire fire at the gunmen? Did you read this in an LAPD after action report? Where did you come up with this information at.

40cal, 10mm, 45acp, 357mag and 9mm will all easily hit a man sized target in center mass at 100 yds with a little aiming.

True. But it doesn't matter in the least because none of those weapons would have penetrated the body armor the gunmen were wearing. Then there is that little problem of making those 100 yard shots under fire. Again, please relate your personal experience with that.

Aiming for the gut(centermass), would have eventually resulted in enough leg, groin, neck and arm hits to stop these guys in short order.

The fact is, there were plenty of COM hits on the gunmen. All ineffective because of the body armor they were wearing. Without a rifle or a round that had enough kinetic energy to knock the gunmen off their feet (which would also knock the shooter off his feet BTW) they weren't going to stop them, covered in kevlar with padding under it as the gunmen were.

Shotguns with 00buck, would have caused plenty of injury at 50-75 yds if they were fired accurately.

Are you referring to some kind of super-secret armor piercing buckshot?

These guys were overwhelmed by noise,

Really, you know this how? You were there? Quite a few hits on the bad guys for poorly trained officers overwhelmed by noise.

Cops have different rules of engagement that the rest of us.

What rules of engagement do you operate under?

Knowing you are going to get investigated,

What do you think will happen if YOU shoot someone, presentation of a Good Citizen Certificate at the next city council meeting? A ticker tape parade in your honor? Make you guest host of the next Girls Gone Wild video?

get psych eval'd and possibly sued for collatorial damage makes it a little tougher to lay down fire than you might think.

What personal experience have you had that makes you an expert in what it takes to lay down fire?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but anyone expressing what he obviously considers an expert opinion needs to be able to share his personal experience and what research has led him to form this expert opinion.

Jeff

 

[Picard]

"They had never been up against trained individuals"

What training did they have? Where either ex mil?

I heard that they watched "Heat" before the shooting. They must have gotten most of their training from Deniro and Pachino, no doubt.

 

[MarcusWendt]

Everyone in this thread who has been in a gunfight raise your hand!

Everyone in this thread who was at the Bank of America that day raise your hand!

Thank you! My cousin was there shooting and was one of the wounded LAPD officers. I was a few blocks away.

The sound of the automatic fire was unreal. Even a few blocks away you could here rounds zipping by.

This armchair QB crap is just that. 99% of officers can't make a gun work? More keyboard commando BS!

 

[willbrink]

"if those lapd cops were better shots and had been better armed "

See Jeff Whites comments above....

The LA PD were equipped with what they deal with and expect to deal with 99.999% of the time. They did hit the BGs (contrary to comments made here) and more or less did the best they could under the circumstances and no criticisms of the LAPD should be takn from my comments here.

Although it sucks, it also makes sense that no dept can or will equip an entire depts for what happens 0.00001% of the time (yes, I am totally inventing those figures for sake of making the point, if anyone has cites to actual numbers, please correct me) so my thoughts were a way to add additional firepower that would not be costly or "scarry" to said anti gun public, which like it or not, does have direct effects on decision making on such matters.

I recall after that shooting, some cars were equipped with patrol rifles (shift supervisors car?), but you still have to wait for that guy to show up!

 

[Rugerlvr]

A freakin M1 with iron sights would have taken them down in a heartbeat at 100 yards.

 

[Sato Ord]

Maybe because it's a great way to commit suicide-by-criminal; driving an SUV at someone with an AK and the will to use it is absolutely insane. Windshields don't do a very good job at deflecting rifle rounds, at least not well enough that I'd be willing to try such a stunt.

I never said make a suicidal charge!

I've watched those videos a lot. I saw quite a few times when the police had the perfect opportunity to just ram the BG. The second gunman was standing behind a car, he had just tried to steel a ride. The police pulled up a few yards away and then stopped and got out of their car. I think I would have just rammed the car the guy was hiding behind.

Windshields may not stop bullets very well. But hitting the driver of an oncoming car when you're trying not to get squished like a bug doesn't make for a good sight picture when you're taking aim, either.

There were a lot of things that could have been done differently that day. A couple of well placed head shots would have handled it nicely. However, cops are trained to shoot center mass, not go for head shots. Their training breaks down when the BGs are heavily armored. The police regularly carry Sigs and GLOCLS with high cap mags and can flatten light ammo against body armor in unprecedented amounts.

Bad guys aren't getting particularly smarter, but they are getting better armed and armored all the time. The police need to train for such events. The incident we are discussing was a robbery, but the next incident may be a terrorist attack, or does everyone think that the military will be first on the scene in such an event?

Law Enforcement Officers should be trained to deal with such an event. Modern pistols are plenty accurate if the people using them are well trained, and police vehicles, especially in large cities, like LA and Chicago, should be equipped with bullet resistant glass and Kevlar door inserts.

This time it was a couple of jerks in full body armor who decided they could get away with it. What if next time it's a gang war, or a squad of trained terrorists. What will the police do then? Duck and cover until the Marines can be sent in?

I'd prefer to see local cops ready for such an instance rather than set the precedence of having the city placed under marshal law for any length of time, which is the alternative to well trained, fully equipped police force.

 

[pbearperry]

A few folks here have hit the nail on the head.Most cops are not gun people.When I came on the job in 1969,some oldtimers told me they wished they didn't even have to carry guns.All they wanted was their billy clubs.Most of the cops that came on after me never hunted and had little or no experience with guns esp shotguns.It took until 1998 before my Dept. even started to think of using slugs instead of just 00Buck.Most of the street cops on my old dept. only get to shoot the shotgun once a year.They look horrible on the range.They forget how to load,unload or even rack the first round into the Remington 870's that we use.Historicaly,police departments hate any change and drag their feet like you would not believe.Even a minor thing like a uniform addition takes months or years to accomplish.Talk about paranoia,the very day my dept. went computerized,5 oldtimers went to City Hall and put their papers in.lol

 

[willbrink]

"It took until 1998 before my Dept. even started to think of using slugs instead of just 00Buck."

And did they? How were the deployed? I have not heard of depts adding slugs to the guns in patrol cars, so that's interesting info.

 

[Feud]

<edited by author>

It was said better by Jeff White, so no need to add more logs on the fire. I just hope that the arm chair quarterbacks around here never are placed in a situation where they must, against all training they have had to shoot for center mass, are forced to try and hit two head sized, moving targets at 100 yards, with handgun, while said targets are firing back full-auto with armor piercing bullets.

 

[ilbob]

My understanding was that it was more like 30 minutes and that the bad guy was not denied medical help but that they could not get ambulances into the area until the area was secured.

The statements of the paramedics who were within a few feet of the dying suspect while he was bleeding out on the ground were pretty clear that they were there and prohibited from treating the suspect. It was only several days later that the LAPD concocted a story to explain why they allowed the suspect to bleed out while preventing medical assistance that was readily available from treating him.

It is always easier after the fact to make judgments about what should or should not be happening, but the cops on the scene were clearly unprepared and terrified. I have no doubt that most of us would be in the same boat given the same situation.

Cops have no superhuman powers. They can't stop bullets with their teeth. Going up against a couple of guys in serious body armor who are carrying automatic rifles is bad enough. having to do it with relative peashooters is something else.

Its also not all that surprising that after such an event, that they might well decide to deal with the guy in their own way. Human nature is what it is, regardless of wearing a badge or not.