Not enough headspace

[Kenny45]

I have a friend who has just bought a used Winchester model 70 varmite barrel in 22-250. He brought it to me to work up some loads for some coyote hunting.The first thing I done was to check the headspace and found that it doesnt have enough. I`am using Forester go and no go gage and the bolt willnot close with the go gauge. Never ran across this before any suggestions ?

 

[Jim Watson]

Will it chamber a factory load or a handload in new brass or in his brass?

 

[Jim K]

The whole headspace business is about tolerances in the ammunition. A GO gauge ensures that the gun will accept any cartridge with a case that does not exceed the specs for the cartridge. But a rifle can fail the GO gauge test and still accept the majority of factory ammunition and handloads.

The first thing that occurs to me is that the barrel might not be factory. The .22-250 was long a wildcat with varying dimensions of reamers, gauges, etc. So the rifle may be chambered for a wildcat version of the .22-250, not the SAAMI standard. If that is the case, do a chamber cast to check out the actual dimensions. If everything looks OK, you have the choice of either reaming the chamber a bit deeper or just advising the customer to select the ammo carefully and/or adjust his sizing die to the minimum.

Jim

 

[Cemetery21]

Please forgive a question from a new member, but an old shooter, reloader and armorer - if the Winchester was a controlled feed, did you feed the gage from the mag?

 

[Kenny45]

Yes it will accept factory loads but the bolt is tight. That was one reason i wanted to check it. The rifle actually shoots fair but he was wanting to work up a load with a little more accuracy for the coyotes.
No I did not load from the mag. I removed the extractor from the bolt and loaded per foresters instruction. also I checked the chamber with an RCBS precision mic to get my COAL and this thing is way deep to the lands. 0.010 off the lands the oal would be 2.410 and with a 55gr hpbt that won`t work. Actually I think that the chamber needs to be reamed. But I`am not a gunsmith

 

[fguffey]

Happens to me all the time, I start with a short chamber, I then go to the firing range and test fire, if everything goes as planned, I finish the chamber, and I do not use head space gages, they are not adjustable, in less time than it takes to order another gage I can make one. When cutting a chamber I form cases for the chamber, that start out .017 thousands shorter than a go-gage chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder/datum/data/, to keep up with progress I chamber a short case, when one fits with light effort to bolt closing I know in thousands the amount of reaming required to complete the chamber. The same information can be obtained from the head space gage (for $20.00 +) or with the ammo the rifles is going to used (for the price of a micrometer that measures depth plus the ability to use it. I measure head space at least three different ways with out a go, no or beyond gage because I measure head space in thousands.



I can convert a go-gage in to a gage that measure head space from a go-gage length chamber to infinity but that would not help you, your go-gage is tool long, I do not shoot gages I shoot ammo, when sizing I size to fit, the die and shell holder is designed to size cases to minimum length like commercial, over the counter, new factory loaded ammo, so to defeat the design some reloaders are misguided and grind the die and or shell holder, I use the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, to size a case that is from .000 to 017 thousands shorter from the head of the case to the shoulder. I adjust the die down to the shell holder with an addition 'slack removing turn of the die' then place a .010 thousands leaf (feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case then raise the ram, hesitarte, then lower the ram, I then take my home made tool and measure the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder to determine it's length and chamber, if the bolt closes with out a little effort, I went too far, but not all my effort is wasted, I mark the case for future use.

I reduce the thickness of the feeler gage and size/form more cases until one chambers with resistance, them make a note of the thickness of the feeler gage and use that number as a standard/transfer when sizing for that chamber. for sizing cases for long chambers, I adjust the die off the shell holder by setting the gap with the fdeeler gage, again I have a m1917 Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, for that one I use the .014 thousands leaf, Eddystone with long chambers are common.

And I use new, unfired cases when when forming and sizing test gages or once fired cases I purchase from a range, for long chambers I need long cases.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

If I had a head space gage and I installed it in a chamber then attempted to close the bolt and the bolt did not close I would have no trouble determining the difference between the length of the gage and chamber, same for a case that will not chamber or allow the bolt to cloe, this reminds me of the the tools available that are nice to have but not necessary, but nice to have.

When a store bought, new, commercial, factory round does not chamber, or when a case is sized and will not chamber I can determine the amount of sizing required for chambering, if the case is not chambering because of case length from the head of the case to it's shoulder.

F. Guffey

 

[Kenny45]

Thanks every body for the suggestions I will post how it turns out.
Thanks Kenny

 

[NCsmitty]

If a decision is made to ream the chamber, slow and easy does it, as a sharp reamer will take a bunch of metal in a flash, if you're not careful. You probably only need to take a couple thousands to make the go gauge go.

I personally like my chambers tight, because you can fit the cases to the chamber.



NCsmitty

 

[Kenny45]

Thats what I plan on doing. Slow and easy. That is what I feel is necessary.
Thanks again
Kenny

 

[fguffey]

"thing is way deep to the lands. 0.010 off the lands the oal would be 2.410 and with a 55gr hpbt that won`t work"

"Actually I think that the chamber needs to be reamed"

Learning to load for this chamber is possible, a challenge, but if you are developing loads for other shooters the minimum skill required, in my opinion would be a working knowledge of the versatility of the press. If you think the chamber is too long reaming the chamber will not shorten it., and again .010 off the lands means taking something off the powder, but I like the running start (bullet jump).

When determining the MAXIMUM COL I drill the primer pocket/flash hole out to a diameter that will accommodate a cleaning rod,, seat a bullet, chamber (without bolt) then push the bullet out of the case with a cleaning rod, when the bullet hits the lands, I remove the test case then measure by setting the test case up in the seater die and adjust the die to the test case, the test case becomes a transfer. Whey adjust the die to the test case? When finished the height of the die above the top of the press is ZERO, the height of the seater stem above the die is ZERO for off the lands if I have a height gage (dial caliper).

Lee list 2.400 MINIMUM length for a 60 grain bullet at 62,000 psi, he does not list the bullet as a boat tail and he leaves out the part that describes the nose of the bullet, but I know the bullet does not have a round or flat nose, because that would result in a shorter case overall length.

I have tested chambers for maximum overall length with the drilled out primer pocket method AND pushed bullets out of the case long before the bullet got close to the lands, I know how that could happen, it is the WHY I do not get.

F. Guffey

 

[Jim K]

Many folks miss the whole point of headspace and headspace gauges. The purpose is NOT to set the chamber to some specific dimension, it is to make the chamber accept all ammunition that is WITHIN THE SPECS FOR THE AMMO.

That is why you can't use factory cartridges or unfired cases as headspace gauges; they have too much tolerance. You can set a chamber to an exact dimension; but Winchester or Remington or Federal or the U.S. government won't guarantee to make cartridges or cartridge cases to YOUR dimension; they will make them within a set of plus/minus tolerances.

You can ream a chamber to any length. But if it won't accept the GO gauge, then it won't accept SOME factory ammo. That might or might not be a problem, and you might never find any ammo that won't fit, but there will be some.

If you can adjust your reloading dies to match the chamber, and use only your reloads, then the whole headspace issue is moot.

Jim

 

[ranger335v]

"this thing is way deep to the lands. 0.010 off the lands the oal would be 2.410 "

Sooo...what is the point of trying to get the bullets .010" off the lands? Few sporters shoot their best that close. Try around .025" off ... or more.

 

[Kenny45]

when working up a load I start at .010 and work back.005 at a time. might not be the traditional it`s just the way i do . i have a savage 110 in 270 cal. that shoots its best at .005 off the lands.

 

[fguffey]

"That is why you can't use factory cartridges or unfired cases as head space gages; they have too much tolerance"

I do not know who 'you' is, but if 'you' can not measure every round in a new box of 20 cartridges and determine the effect it will have on off setting head space, you are correct.

Again, I measure head with least three different methods without a head space gage, I make a tool that measures the effect the case will have on the chamber.

Some can, some can not: Before the Internet published gunsmith wrote their opinion of the method, in one writing the smith said he knew gunsmiths that use/have used the method, he then went on to say he did not use the method and then went on to say or give the rational, he did not say 'you' can not do it.

I have an in-line/angle/butt grinder, using brass cases is an option, I am a big fan of transfers and standards,, the bolt closes, the chamber gets dark, but that is no reason for the light to go out.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

..measure head space with at least three.....

sorry about that,

F. Guffey

 

[Zeke/PA]

Correct me if I'm wrong.
This headspade controversy is getting carried away.
Got loading dies??, Bolt Action rifle??
Save yourself an expensive trip to the Gunshop, use some common sense ,then GO from there.

 

[fguffey]

Why would you be wrong, why would someone correct you? A year a go this thread would have gone the way of the datum line, no one knew where it was, no one knew how to describe it and no one knew how to find it, no one knew how to use it. Back then the thread came to an end with no answer.

Example: I purchased a mill from a collector, resource/historian, and builder of 03s and M1 Garands, about the time we finished loading the mill and parts the subject came up about head space, he was building a period correct Rock Island 03 for 1911, While checking head space he decided to post a question on a forum and before he was able to get enough information to answer his question the datum liners made him wish he had not posted the question.

I had time so I told him "THIS IS YOUR LUCKY DAY" I then explained to him I could check head space three different ways without a head space gage. He then pulled out a box of head space gages and said he had tried one with the extractor removed from the bolt. My question was "HOW MUCH HEAD SPACE DOES THE RIFLE HAVE? He then informed me he did not know, because the gage chambered. I explained to him I thought head space gages were nice to have, and I did not use them because I want to know how much head space a chamber has in thousands, I do not want to know if the gage will chamber. I then went around his shop and picked different different tools that can be used to check head space.

The first tool I selected was the feeler gage that started at .0005, I then chambered one round from a new box of 20 Remington 30/06 that he was going to use to test fire the rifle with. I started by pulling (seating the lugs) the bolt back and measuring the gap between the rear of the (third) lug and the front ot the rear receiver ring, I then pushed the bolt forward and measured the gap again, the difference was .0075 thousands, I then measuring the gap for the other 19 rounds, from minimum to maximum there was .0015 difference, I then changed bolts, he had 80 plus bolts, I offered to check all of them and offered to use to check the effect mu bolts had on head space when I got home in an attempt to reduce the head space but informed him I would be a wasting of our time. The Rock Island period correct 1911 has a straight handle boat he only had one and I have one instilled in a Rock Island 03. I offered to size/form brass for his chamber that would reduce the head space, his choice from .002 to .005.

And I offered to modify his go-gage to a go to-infinity gage, but that would not be period correct, he has discipline, I look for a reason to turn it into something else, any reason like someone telling me my ole military rifle has parts that do not match and then I am told it is not worth anything, that makes it affordable.

The collector has a hydraulic pump/piston driven press, with a mechanical return, it runs like a single trip punch press/trip hammer.

Changing bolts, I do not have one bolt out of 30+ 03 bolts that will change head space .001 thousands,

F. Guffey

 

[Zeke/PA]

Headspace, short chambers?
Suggestion, chamber and fire a FACTORY round and observe.
Then, FULL LENGTH SIZE and reload some brass that was fired in ths particular rifle, and OBSERVE again.
No blown primers, or split cases OR hard EXTRACTION??
Run a batch of brass thru your full length size die, load them , THEN shoot.
I'm willing to bet that you don't have a "headspace" problem.
You might want to pay particular attention to your bullet seating depth.
Chamber a round, extract, eject and inspect.
Rifling marks on the bullet MAY indicate a throating problem.
My take on this headspace thing is that some folks don't fully understand the principals.