Not so sure about the .357 Mag

[mjsdwash]

I wonder how much better today's bullets work; perhaps 1450 FPS is no longer required for an effective load?

I believe your right. I think a good NineMM or Fourty will do just as well now.

 

[RPZ]

Yep, twenty years ago, even ten, but now unless your buying the exotic brands, your lucky to see a 125gr bullet going over 1400fps, at least from a 5.5" ruger with a .07" cylinder gap. Even Corbon, who loads on the high side is doing it. Recoil and flash are big, but the energy is missing. Ten years ago, you would get that speed with some factory 158gr, and thrity years ago, with a 180gr. At least according to my results, using two rugers, one smith and wesson, and a Marlin. I will say I love the Cal, its a big favorite of mine, but for defense, you get a lot of noise and flash, and not a whole lot to show for it. Our of a marlin, BB 158gr will hit almost 2000FPS, and out of the 5.5 Ruger it would do 1560, but at 2$/round, and a target grade hollowpoint I don't see an advantage over 9

I've shots loads from a 3" ten years ago with little or no flash. You won't get 1,450 from a 3 or 4", but it is significantly higher than your average 9mm +p. Ultimately it is the bullets, and Federal and Remington had it right with their 125 gr hollow point loads two decades ago. That is why it scored so high in the Marshall and Sanow stats, and most of those shoots were probably with 4" revolvers.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Yep, twenty years ago, even ten, but now unless your buying the exotic brands, your lucky to see a 125gr bullet going over 1400fps, at least from a 5.5" ruger with a .07" cylinder gap. Even Corbon, who loads on the high side is doing it. Recoil and flash are big, but the energy is missing. Ten years ago, you would get that speed with some factory 158gr, and thrity years ago, with a 180gr. At least according to my results, using two rugers, one smith and wesson, and a Marlin. I will say I love the Cal, its a big favorite of mine, but for defense, you get a lot of noise and flash, and not a whole lot to show for it. Our of a marlin, BB 158gr will hit almost 2000FPS, and out of the 5.5 Ruger it would do 1560, but at 2$/round, and a target grade hollowpoint I don't see an advantage over 9

Best check with http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/ and his 'speed trap' forum.

One showed..

Temp: 84 Deg F.
Sky: Clear
Shots: Five
Distance: 10 feet

Cartridge: Federal 125 gr. .357 JHP (advertised @ 1440 fps)
Weapon : S&W Model 13 4 inch
High Vel : 1467 fps
Low : 1402
Average : 1443
ES : 65

Another:

Remington-UMC .357 mag 125 gr JSP
gun: S&W 686, 4"
hi = 1488
lo = 1400
av = 1436
es = 88
sd = 33
comments: The "cheap practice version" of the supreme stopper - .357 mag 125 grain JHP.

And even 100 grain powerball:

load-CB 100gr PB .357 Magnum, gun-S&W Model 66

high-1721 fps
low-1683 fps
average-1702 fps
extreme spread-38 fps
standard deviation-15 fps

extraction was easy and accuracy was very good-less than 2" at 25 meters.

So I kind of think the .357 Mag still delivers.

Deaf

 

[RPZ]

But the implied topic is what gun to choose, and not in an open carry size, LEO context. I would rather rely on logic and gel tests for civilian CCW purposes.

Gel represents an average. It does not reflect what happens or doesn't happen when a bullet goes between two ribs and goes through aerated lung tissue, or strikes one of the heavier bones. Perhaps a better measure is what a bullet does on a 150-200 pound game animal.

How many people deer hunt with a 9mm?

 

[mjsdwash]

That's why you load your own. Some 35 years ago I saw three of those one shot stops. I've also seen quite a few 9mm gunshot wounds. The .357 damage is far greater than a 9mm, and that's why I carry one. Yes, they are heavy. Yes, they kick and they are loud. But they get the job done.

I do handload for it, and used to go pretty hot too, before Aliant say'd "NO MORE BLUE DOT!". H110 and 2400 seem to cap out a little over 1400 for 125gr at current max. Ive seen some reports on the .357 from before it was wimped out, and it was really something to see. I wish more manufacturers would push it to the limits these days though. I did shoot some Sellier and Bellot stuff a few years ago that was supposed to be pretty fast. It kicked like a 44mag, but I didn't get a chance to chrono it.

 

[ROD KLOMP]

An old trick my Dad taught me , was to open my mouth very wide open , this closes hearing a bit and helps protect your hearing when hearing protection isn available, like when being attacked, try training this way and if your lucky you will do this automaticly when it's needed...

 

[mjsdwash]

Best check with http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/ and his 'speed trap' forum.

One showed..

Temp: 84 Deg F.
Sky: Clear
Shots: Five
Distance: 10 feet

Cartridge: Federal 125 gr. .357 JHP (advertised @ 1440 fps)
Weapon : S&W Model 13 4 inch
High Vel : 1467 fps
Low : 1402
Average : 1443
ES : 65

Another:

Remington-UMC .357 mag 125 gr JSP
gun: S&W 686, 4"
hi = 1488
lo = 1400
av = 1436
es = 88
sd = 33
comments: The "cheap practice version" of the supreme stopper - .357 mag 125 grain JHP.

And even 100 grain powerball:

load-CB 100gr PB .357 Magnum, gun-S&W Model 66

high-1721 fps
low-1683 fps
average-1702 fps
extreme spread-38 fps
standard deviation-15 fps

extraction was easy and accuracy was very good-less than 2" at 25 meters.

So I kind of think the .357 Mag still delivers.

Deaf

looks like your Smith shoots a little faster than my Ruger by around 5%, which is good considering the shorter barrel.

 

[RPZ]

An old trick my Dad taught me , was to open my mouth very wide open , this closes hearing a bit and helps protect your hearing when hearing protection isn available, like when being attacked, try training this way and if your lucky you will do this automaticly when it's needed...

No, the prosecution will use it against you.. "See! He was smiling!!!"

 

[mjsdwash]

An old trick my Dad taught me , was to open my mouth very wide open , this closes hearing a bit and helps protect your hearing when hearing protection isn available, like when being attacked, try training this way and if your lucky you will do this automaticly when it's needed...

it works, but the down side is doing that out of habit with earplugs in makes them stop working

 

[Crowman]

Interesting thread. Some words from someone who's been there with regards to charts, graphs, essays, position papers, reports, models, simulations and other made-up junk (GIGO):

The map is not the terrain.

 

[Crowman]

I have no question about the .357 Magnum, which is a great all round cartridge and one of my favorites. Guns so chambered are a whole lot more versatile than 9mm. Two different cartridges with different power levels, mix & match loads in cylinder and better bullet choices (construction, shape, uses). My magnums will shoot through flesh and bone which is why I generally tote them with 38 specials whenever the perceived threat is human, and in a crowded area. Will get the job done, won't over penetrate. Minimizes "collateral damage". I tend to shoot 158 grain bullets because for me, the POI coincides with POA. 125 grain bullets print low for my fixed sights, the 180's print high, the 158 grainers hit my sweet spot.

If you shoot anything in a confined space, you will ring your chimes. A heavy .357 is no worse than a hot 9mm or even a .22 WMR, for that matter. It just plain sucks.

Though waaaay back in the days of my bullet-proof yute, when Speer's reloading manual wasn't afraid of you puttin' powder in a case, I loaded some 110 grain .357 Magnum screamers that threw a cone of fire 3' - 4' + from the muzzle of my 5" model 27 in a dark indoor shooting range. Man, that sucker was loud! Had to wear ear plugs under my mouse ears! I was not even close to the listed maximum loading and there was no primer cratering or flowing. Wished I had a chronograph back then.

DA revolvers are more difficult to truly master than the Tupperware stuff, but when you do master a DA revolver's trigger, you can pretty much shoot any handgun well.

My perspective is different than most. I'm rural by choice...and self-identify as a proud Appalachian-American. I got out of Dodge a while ago and never looked back. I don't need a bug out bag / kit to get to a retreat...I'm already here. I loathe & despise big cities. Around here, shooting through isn't a problem. Plus, we got varmints & critters. Also I have like minded neighbors. We take care of each other. With Rugers & Smiths.

The preferred CCW gun for my dress up & go to town wear is a 11 oz or so M&P 340 in .357 Magnum. I carry it loaded with .38 Special +P 158 grain JHP so I don't over penetrate in a store, but also have the option of full house magnums available in 158 grain JSP for penetration if I need it. Yeah, I can shoot it. Sometimes it sucks... Bad hand day...kinda like slapping a concrete block after touching off full house magnums. Pachmayr Diamond Pro's go a loooong way to making magnums doable in this little gem. It rides in a OWB pancake holster. Extra ammo is worn on belt in quick strip pouches, speedloaders in cowboy vest pocket.

I will concede that I'll put on a 9mm Shield and four extra mags if and when I absolutely have to go down to Atlanta (usually only once per year), but generally I have no use for semiauto's where I live. Kinda like the final gunfight scene in Quigley Downunder........

My Spring / Summer EDC gun is either a S&W 640 PC Pro Series .357 cut for moon clips, and loaded with a mix of CCI / Speer shotshell, Buffalo Bore heavy .38 Outdoorsman loads (158 grain Keith hard cast SWC) with the option of dumping the 38's and dropping in 180 grain hard cast RNFPGC magnums if brother Yonah comes to party. It rides in an OWB pancake holster. Speedloaders and moonclips ride in my vest pocket. Other ammo is carried in nylon pouches on Quickstrips.

The second gun choice in the Spring / Summer CCW rotation is a S&W 386 Night Guard loaded with heavy .357 Magnum 180 grain hard cast RNFPGC from Grizzly or Buffalo Bore. I do wear the 386 NG under a concealment cover when I need to run to a big box store but don't wanna dress up. It rides in a OWB pancake holster, belt carries two ammo pouches with quick strips and vest carries speedloaders.

My ridge walker is a Ruger GP100 Match Champion (my avatar) also loaded with 180 grain cast heavies.

Sometimes I tote a 16" barrel S.S. Rossi R92 carbine as a companion to my revolvers...yes, it's also loaded with Grizzly or BB 180 grain cast RNFPGC heavies. And yes, it approaches 30-30 performance.

I've also worn a 2-5/8" model 629 PC in a OWB pancake holster to Walmart under a light sport coat without printing, so concealed carry of B.A.G.'s are doable...it's a life style and wardrobe choice, a mix of Frontier Classics 19th century cowboy & Duluth Trading Fire Hose workwear and Chippawa plough boots for me. I'm an old-school DIY kind of guy who wears both a thick purpose built gunbelt and button tab suspenders. Belt holds gun, knife, ammo & suspenders hold up trousers and all the other stuff. I avoid the whole "tactical" thing and the short baggy punk pants and flip-flop crap. Stepping on a fat copperhead in the weeds with flip-flops is heap bad juju.

Fall /Winter EDC gun shifts up to .44 Special / .44 Magnum with 3" Charter Classic Bulldog and a S&W Model 69. Long gun is a 16" barrel S.S. Rossi R92 chambered in .44 Magnum. No reason...just 'cause...

Just sayin'...

 

[RealGun]

Are you saying 'civilian CCW purposes' of defending one's life are not the same as a LEO's defending one's life?

I mentioned the size of the guns generally used just to show what was used. S&W 19s are not that big. Oh, and Ayoob said the 2 1/2 S&W 19s (Combat Magnums) even at 1350 fps, did just as well.

Gel test? You think gel test show the capability of the round more than actual shootings do? What kind of logic is that?

Deaf

Couple of good nonsequiturs there. Typically LEOs can open carry, which is a game changer. Open carry States could have different discussions than the rest.

I think it is a fact that gel tests uncover many myths. They can also confirm anecdotal data. Most importantly, they allow retrieving the bullet to assess its expansion, performance, and any fragmentation..

 

[RealGun]

Gel represents an average. It does not reflect what happens or doesn't happen when a bullet goes between two ribs and goes through aerated lung tissue, or strikes one of the heavier bones. Perhaps a better measure is what a bullet does on a 150-200 pound game animal.

How many people deer hunt with a 9mm?

Good points, but I was referring to compiled data.

 

[mjsdwash]

Going back to the noise issue, I actually did hear a .357 indoors once, a Remington 158gr softpoint. Did not have ears on at the time, and I can say at least in that circumstance, it sounded like a capgun, not too loud, didn't hurt followed by immediate ringing, so Im thinking serious hearing damage will happen. I did pass a hearing test a few years after, but still, not good.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Couple of good nonsequiturs there. Typically LEOs can open carry, which is a game changer. Open carry States could have different discussions than the rest.

I think it is a fact that gel tests uncover many myths. They can also confirm anecdotal data. Most importantly, they allow retrieving the bullet to assess its expansion, performance, and any fragmentation..

What does 'open carry' have to do with this? People carry concealed .45s and .357s all the time. In the winter here in Texas I pack a Glock 22 .40 S&W. Ain't hard to do.

Gel test, or any other test/computer simulation/etc., are supposed to replicate the real world. When they don't then it's the test that has the problem, not the real world (kind of like 'global warming models'.) Using police reports and autopsies is the real world to find out what works and what does not is reality.

Deaf

 

[RPZ]

Interesting thread. Some words from someone who's been there with regards to charts, graphs, essays, position papers, reports, models, simulations and other made-up junk (GIGO):

The map is not the terrain.

Actually among those maps are the narratives of people going back to the beginning of the .357 who lived it and have written extensively about it. Bill Jordan is just one example.

 

[buck460XVR]

With no hearing protection, a .22 CB cap will give you permanent hearing damage with one shot. And that damage is accumulative. Makes no difference what you shoot inside or if you have instant symptoms or not.
As mentioned, should you ever have a need to shoot inside with anything, the alternative of not doing so is far more traumatic. You won't notice the noise when gallons of adrenaline are coursing through you.

^^^This. Add to the fact, that the the odds are highly against the chance of one ever having to use their SD weapon, without hearing protection in an enclosed place, it should have relatively little relevance in determining caliber effectiveness. As for a .357 revolver being a poor performer on deer, when used within it's parameters and with appropriate projectiles, the only poor performer, is the hunter holding the revolver. No different than any other caliber/platform.

 

[Varminterror]

How many people deer hunt with a 9mm?

I've taken multiple deer with 9x19mm, both in handguns and in carbines. I've also taken dozens of deer with 357mag's, also in handguns and carbines. Neither are well suited for the task, outside of highly restricted conditions, but the 357mag's larger case really shows its advantage over the 9mm when it has sufficient barrel length.

But... Considering deer hunting firearm selections in a conversation about self defense revolvers doesn't make sense. I kill deer typically at 25-250yrds, and never in a surprised state. I don't assume I'll ever need my carry piece, but I certainly won't be using it at 25-250yrds, and DO expect to be in a surprised, high stress state.

In a snubby revolver, the difference between the 9mm and the 357mag in performance at the muzzle is significantly less than the difference between the two at the application distances.

Comparatively, if I place any of my 9mm compact pistols against similarly sized J-Frame/SP101 revolvers, I'm left with a compromise in choosing either of them JUST BASED ON CARTRIDGE ALONE - the revolvers hit a little harder, but the autoloaders hold more rounds. The 9mm is more than sufficiently powerful for the task at hand, so the extra power isn't meaningful. The extra capacity CAN be meaningful. The reload speed, and reload capacity is certainly meaningful.

In a revolver, eh, flip a coin. I have 9mm revolvers, but I've honestly never been a fan. I'll take 38/357 over 9mm in a revolver every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[RPZ]

I've taken multiple deer with 9x19mm, both in handguns and in carbines. I've also taken dozens of deer with 357mag's, also in handguns and carbines. Neither are well suited for the task, outside of highly restricted conditions, but the 357mag's larger case really shows its advantage over the 9mm when it has sufficient barrel length.

But... Considering deer hunting firearm selections in a conversation about self defense revolvers doesn't make sense. I kill deer typically at 25-250yrds, and never in a surprised state. I don't assume I'll ever need my carry piece, but I certainly won't be using it at 25-250yrds, and DO expect to be in a surprised, high stress state.

In a snubby revolver, the difference between the 9mm and the 357mag in performance at the muzzle is significantly less than the difference between the two at the application distances.

Comparatively, if I place any of my 9mm compact pistols against similarly sized J-Frame/SP101 revolvers, I'm left with a compromise in choosing either of them JUST BASED ON CARTRIDGE ALONE - the revolvers hit a little harder, but the autoloaders hold more rounds. The 9mm is more than sufficiently powerful for the task at hand, so the extra power isn't meaningful. The extra capacity CAN be meaningful. The reload speed, and reload capacity is certainly meaningful.

In a revolver, eh, flip a coin. I have 9mm revolvers, but I've honestly never been a fan. I'll take 38/357 over 9mm in a revolver every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I've taken multiple deer with 9x19mm, both in handguns and in carbines. I've also taken dozens of deer with 357mag's, also in handguns and carbines. Neither are well suited for the task, outside of highly restricted conditions, but the 357mag's larger case really shows its advantage over the 9mm when it has sufficient barrel length.

But... Considering deer hunting firearm selections in a conversation about self defense revolvers doesn't make sense. I kill deer typically at 25-250yrds, and never in a surprised state. I don't assume I'll ever need my carry piece, but I certainly won't be using it at 25-250yrds, and DO expect to be in a surprised, high stress state.

In a snubby revolver, the difference between the 9mm and the 357mag in performance at the muzzle is significantly less than the difference between the two at the application distances.

Comparatively, if I place any of my 9mm compact pistols against similarly sized J-Frame/SP101 revolvers, I'm left with a compromise in choosing either of them JUST BASED ON CARTRIDGE ALONE - the revolvers hit a little harder, but the autoloaders hold more rounds. The 9mm is more than sufficiently powerful for the task at hand, so the extra power isn't meaningful. The extra capacity CAN be meaningful. The reload speed, and reload capacity is certainly meaningful.

In a revolver, eh, flip a coin. I have 9mm revolvers, but I've honestly never been a fan. I'll take 38/357 over 9mm in a revolver every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Most close encounters of the deadly kind take place at three yards and three seconds with three rounds fired. At three yards I can empty a six shot .357 3-4" revolver in that time or less on target, on demand. No safeties, no having to remember whether I am carrying a 1911 with safety, DA/SA with transition from first to second trigger pull, or whether I have a Glock, VP9 etc with no safety. Just draw, flash sight picture, bangbangbang.. bangbang..bang.

My only concession to a 9mm pistol is at ranges longer than about 5 yards where making fast hits is far more difficult. And I use five yards as an arbitrary distance since everyones' ability with a revolver shooting double action will differ. In an extended shootout out in an open area with no cover to run to, or little of it, yes I would prefer a 9mm for capacity in between reloading. But as far as the effectiveness of the .357 versus 9mm at close distance the .357 is a better round. I bring up deer, because animals do not watch TV, they do not quit until they are physically incapable of anything. Thus a meaningful comparison can be made. If you were to shoot ten deer with the old Federal or Remington 125 grain load at about three yards in the same heart lung area, and ten with a similar 9mm load at the same distance how many of either group would run further before they dropped?

 

[Varminterror]

If you were to shoot ten deer with the old Federal or Remington 125 grain load at about three yards in the same heart lung area, and ten with a similar 9mm load at the same distance how many of either group would run further before they dropped?

Having done effectively this experiment, albeit spread out over multiple seasons and at the majority at considerably longer ranges, I will say you will not experience ANY difference in these two groups of hypothetical deer. Any given one of them, hit with either cartridge, will be just as likely to drop in his tracks OR to run ~40-50yrds before collapsing.

Been there, done that. Unlike your hypothesizing, I have the luxury of experience in this particularly unique case. Given a well placed bullet of proper construction in each, it's nearly arbitrary to compare the 9mm to the 357mag for hunting deer.

My wife dropped a meat doe several years ago with her 2 1/4" SP101, shooting the Leverevolution 140 FTX at 43 layered tar ds. Ran a ways and crumpled. I hit a deer in the early 2000's with a G19 firing either a 125 or 147 Gold Dot at 35 stepped yards, she jumped straight up at the shot, but her legs buckled and she died where she had stood. Used the same bullet the year before in a High Point carbine to take a doe past 60yrds, she ran about 60yrds.

The difference in performance on DEER really isn't applicable, but it certainly does NOT support your contention of a significant difference in stoppage between the two.

You have to get out past 50-75yrds before the 357mag starts really shining over the 9mm, and frankly, that difference remains to be INCREDIBLY limited if you're talking about short barreled pistols. A full length revolver or carbine can give the 357 enough barrel to leave the 9mm behind, but for a snubby, the difference isn't substantial.

 

[RealGun]

What does 'open carry' have to do with this? People carry concealed .45s and .357s all the time. In the winter here in Texas I pack a Glock 22 .40 S&W. Ain't hard to do.

Gel test, or any other test/computer simulation/etc., are supposed to replicate the real world. When they don't then it's the test that has the problem, not the real world (kind of like 'global warming models'.) Using police reports and autopsies is the real world to find out what works and what does not is reality.

Deaf

If penetration and bullet expansion don't indicate the essentials of choosing a round, why do the gel tests? At least there is real data, not a collection of infinitely variable anecdotes that some writer claims is factual. I can understand the use of stories to validate choice of a cartridge but much less to choose a specific round in that cartridge.

 

[Varminterror]

At three yards I can empty a six shot .357 3-4" revolver in that time or less on target, on demand.

And in 3 seconds, I can empty a 15 round G19. What does that have to do with anything?

Your conjecture about safeties is moot too. You're poorly trained if you have to admit you carry a DA revolver to be sure you don't try to turn off a safety in a passive safety pistol. Plain and simple. The safety comes off during the draw stroke, so if it delays your shot on target, you are poorly trained. If you fail to deactivate it upon your draw, you are poorly trained. That argument is bunk. Many of us agree, there should be as few manual dexterous operations between "oh schitt" and "bang" as possible, but it really doesn't signify any realized difference in time-to-first-shot.

 

[Deaf Smith]

If penetration and bullet expansion don't indicate the essentials of choosing a round, why do the gel tests? At least there is real data, not a collection of infinitely variable anecdotes that some writer claims is factual. I can understand the use of stories to validate choice of a cartridge but much less to choose a specific round in that cartridge.

Police records and autopsies are not 'stories'. Massad Ayoob is not 'some writer'. He is a retired police captain who has written multiple books as well as trained thousands of people. Evan Marshal is also a retired Chicago LEO to. That is how they got a hold of the reports as well as autopsies.

Why do test like gel test? Cause getting data from LEO organizations today is much harder than it was 20 years ago.

But the fact is, observed results IS reality. 'Test' are good only if they duplicate reality. If the test say one round is a lightning bolt at incapacitation yet on the street it fails repeatedly then something is wrong with the test. Test must show the same results as on the street to be valid.

And back then 20-30 years ago the .357 magnum, with full loads, was 'the' stopper.

Deaf

 

[C0untZer0]

Owning LCR's in 9x19 and 357mag, I couldn't tell you one is really quieter than the other - both are remarkably loud

I have an LCR in 9mm and I have to say, it is a handful to shoot. One nice thing about revolver cartridges is that you can usually find very light loads, since they're not expected to cycle an action, but the only light loads for 9mm that I was able to find were Federal Guard Dog and Hornady 100gr FTX Lite... both pretty expensive for practice ammo.

 

[RealGun]

<snip>

And back then 20-30 years ago the .357 magnum, with full loads, was 'the' stopper.

Deaf

Carried in an N-frame that few attempt to carry concealed nowadays. Even the load standards have been reduced.

Parsing words is not helpful. Police stories can tell you which cartridge to use but not really which brand, bullet, and load. That is where gel tests that compare performance under like conditions are useful guidance. I don't see a real point in discrediting the tests for not being absolutely realistic. We know to look for penetration and bullet expansion. Wound cavity, deflection against bone and all that would need to come from some other study.

It is kind of sad to make too much of this, because I think the majority of 357 carry guns are too small for the real deal ammo, and owners very frequently opt for 38 Special.