Not so sure about the .357 Mag

[JBella]

It's common to see the .357 Mag recommended as a self defense round and we've all seen that, in the 125 grain loading, it's the number one manstopper statistically.

This is all well and good but, years ago, I fired a .22 Magnum with no hearing protection out of a 5.5" revolver and I regretted it for a while after that. Based on that one experience I'm reluctant to depend on a full-house .357 load for defense. It seems to me that the blast, the flash (in dim light) and the recoil would make this round tactically less desirable than, say, a 9mm or a heavy .38 +P load.

What's the opinion out there? I know that training plays a big part in preparing for a defensive encounter but I assume that anyone who trains with this round wears hearing protection. How do you prepare yourself for the blast (and possibly the flash) that you'll get in the actual encounter?

Thanks.

 

[paulsj]

Unless you are looking for wilderness gun I would pick 9x19. Ruger makes good abeit ugly defensive revolver in this caliber

 

[GBExpat]

How do you prepare yourself for the blast (and possibly the flash) that you'll get in the actual encounter?

In an actual encounter, probably the last thing about which you will be concerned is the "blast & flash".

... and Welcome to THR!

 

[USSR]

It's common to see the .357 Mag recommended as a self defense round and we've all seen that, in the 125 grain loading, it's the number one manstopper statistically.

This is all well and good but, years ago, I fired a .22 Magnum with no hearing protection out of a 5.5" revolver and I regretted it for a while after that. Based on that one experience I'm reluctant to depend on a full-house .357 load for defense. It seems to me that the blast, the flash (in dim light) and the recoil would make this round tactically less desirable than, say, a 9mm or a heavy .38 +P load.

What's the opinion out there? I know that training plays a big part in preparing for a defensive encounter but I assume that anyone who trains with this round wears hearing protection. How do you prepare yourself for the blast (and possibly the flash) that you'll get in the actual encounter?

Thanks.

Easy. You don't use the 125gr load, especially in .357 Magnum. The ability to do quick follow-up shots is an important defensive attribute. What I use exclusively is what's known as the "FBI Load". This is a .38 Special +P load that consists of a 158gr lead SWCHP load traveling at 900 fps (+/- 40 fps, depending upon barrel length). This is a proven load that will give expansion, penetration, and allow for quick follow-up shots should they be needed.

Don

 

[.308 Norma]

I haven't got an answer for you, JBella. But welcome to THR anyway!

 

[Varminterror]

It's common to see the .357 Mag recommended as a self defense round and we've all seen that, in the 125 grain loading, it's the number one manstopper statistically.

Could you provide these stats? As I certainly can't be counted in "all" that have seen stats supporting the 357mag with 125's as the number one manstopper.

No centerfire revolver or pistol will be kind to your ears - so given a defensive shooting scenario, you have the choice between deaf or dead. Oh the difference one little letter makes in that choice.

The hearing damage opportunity is real. I took 6 shots from a 44magnum revolver without protection as a teen, and have had tinitus in my left ear (left handed shooting, Bullseye style) ever since, accounting for 50% hearing loss in that ear. I'm incredibly mindful of what hearing I have left, and what unprotected shooting I might do.

High pressure rounds mean big bangs out of revolvers. The SAAMI MAP for both the 9x19 and the 357mag are 35,000psi, both share approximately the same bore diameter, and neglecting any appreciable attrition of pressure at the muzzle of a snubby revolver compared to the peak pressure, there really isn't a significant difference in decibel output for a 9x19 and a 357mag. The difference between two loads within each cartridge can be greater than the difference between the two cartridges themselves. Owning LCR's in 9x19 and 357mag, I couldn't tell you one is really quieter than the other - both are remarkably loud.

There really doesn't seem to be any significant way to reduce your overall sound exposure with a handgun. There is data out there showing only 3-5 decibel difference between 380acp and 3spcl, including 9x19, 45acp, 38spcl, etc. and only ~10 decibel between these "standard" cartridges and other "magnum" cartridges like 357mag, 44mag, 41mag, etc. While 10dB can make a difference, it's really more indicative that firing ANY handgun unprotected can and will cause hearing damage.

Wear your ear plugs when practicing, and if you ever find yourself with hearing damage after a defensive shooting, be grateful to be deaf instead of dead.

 

[AZAndy]

Easy. You don't use the 125gr load, especially in .357 Magnum. The ability to do quick follow-up shots is an important defensive attribute. What I use exclusively is what's known as the "FBI Load". This is a .38 Special +P load that consists of a 158gr lead SWCHP load traveling at 900 fps (+/- 40 fps, depending upon barrel length). This is a proven load that will give expansion, penetration, and allow for quick follow-up shots should they be needed.

Don

Funny you should mention. I've been bemoaning their poor performance in a couple of threads lately, since I read through these tests.

 

[USSR]

Thanks for that link, AZAndy. A couple of things regarding their results with the commercial 158gr lead SWCHP .38 Special +P loads. First, their velocities are not up to snuff. The only load that exceeds 900fps (Remington) has excellent expansion. Federal's loads are lacking by at least 50fps, and Winchester's by 100fps. These loads are not the same as they were putting out in years past. The other thing is, we don't know what alloy they are using, or what the size and depth of the hollowpoint is. Personally, I cast my own SWCHP's which have a huge hollowpoint, and the alloy I use is short on antimony and long on tin. That's the key to hollowpoint performance; matching the alloy to the hollowpoint dimensions and the velocity.

Don

 

[buster94]

For every 3 decibels difference between two gun the loudness is much greater than what you think the number 3 would produce.
Personally I used to carry an LCR 357 that I carried with 357 mag 125gr hollowpoint ammo but due to the recoil, sound from blast and that the 357 mag is reported as often going through a body I then went to a 38+P 125gr hollowpoint.. I have my doubts whether the 357 hp would go through a body because I target shoot into sand. The bullets are seldom going more than 6" deep and they are flattening out very well. Even shooting with the LCR stubby the bullets were still flattening out.
Back to the sound problem, yes a person will very likely have hearing damage especially since a person will more than likely shoot their gun at least three times if not the full cylinder full. When loud noise is repeated quickly the damage probability is much greater. I read that even though your body could shut down some aspects of your hearing at the time of the shooting that it doesn't sound that loud to you the damage is probably still done. I had an ND inside the house with a 9mm 4" and the noise was nothing to me. No pain or ringing in my ears. Shooting a 9mm outside without protection was much louder and my ears sounded like I was hearing through a sea shell for a week.
Here is an interesting article about gun decibels and how the numbers are much more multiplied than just added on top. Outlawing silencers is so stupid it is pitiful. As usual the BG are the ones that still have them. Military soldiers lose hearing because they can't even have silencers.
............
http://m14forum.com/hearing/78442-various-noise-levels-firearms.html

 

[JBella]

Could you provide these stats? As I certainly can't be counted in "all" that have seen stats supporting the 357mag with 125's as the number one manstopper.

No centerfire revolver or pistol will be kind to your ears - so given a defensive shooting scenario, you have the choice between deaf or dead. Oh the difference one little letter makes in that choice.

The hearing damage opportunity is real. I took 6 shots from a 44magnum revolver without protection as a teen, and have had tinitus in my left ear (left handed shooting, Bullseye style) ever since, accounting for 50% hearing loss in that ear. I'm incredibly mindful of what hearing I have left, and what unprotected shooting I might do.

High pressure rounds mean big bangs out of revolvers. The SAAMI MAP for both the 9x19 and the 357mag are 35,000psi, both share approximately the same bore diameter, and neglecting any appreciable attrition of pressure at the muzzle of a snubby revolver compared to the peak pressure, there really isn't a significant difference in decibel output for a 9x19 and a 357mag. The difference between two loads within each cartridge can be greater than the difference between the two cartridges themselves. Owning LCR's in 9x19 and 357mag, I couldn't tell you one is really quieter than the other - both are remarkably loud.

There really doesn't seem to be any significant way to reduce your overall sound exposure with a handgun. There is data out there showing only 3-5 decibel difference between 380acp and 3spcl, including 9x19, 45acp, 38spcl, etc. and only ~10 decibel between these "standard" cartridges and other "magnum" cartridges like 357mag, 44mag, 41mag, etc. While 10dB can make a difference, it's really more indicative that firing ANY handgun unprotected can and will cause hearing damage.

Wear your ear plugs when practicing, and if you ever find yourself with hearing damage after a defensive shooting, be grateful to be deaf instead of dead.

Hi Varmint, thanks for the informative reply.

In my quoting of handgun stopping power I was thinking of the Marshall and Sanow study which I realize is dated. Another summary along the same lines is here at the Chuck Hawks website:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

Your story about the 6 .44 Magnum rounds without hearing protection is hair-raising! But your point about all rounds being harmful is well-taken.

 

[JBella]

Easy. You don't use the 125gr load, especially in .357 Magnum. The ability to do quick follow-up shots is an important defensive attribute. What I use exclusively is what's known as the "FBI Load". This is a .38 Special +P load that consists of a 158gr lead SWCHP load traveling at 900 fps (+/- 40 fps, depending upon barrel length). This is a proven load that will give expansion, penetration, and allow for quick follow-up shots should they be needed.

Don

Thanks for the reply. I recently purchased the Buffalo Bore loading of this round which they advertise as 158 grains at 1000 fps. This type of "FBI load" makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[JBella]

For every 3 decibels difference between two gun the loudness is much greater than what you think the number 3 would produce.
Personally I used to carry an LCR 357 that I carried with 357 mag 125gr hollowpoint ammo but due to the recoil, sound from blast and that the 357 mag is reported as often going through a body I then went to a 38+P 125gr hollowpoint.. I have my doubts whether the 357 hp would go through a body because I target shoot into sand. The bullets are seldom going more than 6" deep and they are flattening out very well. Even shooting with the LCR stubby the bullets were still flattening out.
Back to the sound problem, yes a person will very likely have hearing damage especially since a person will more than likely shoot their gun at least three times if not the full cylinder full. When loud noise is repeated quickly the damage probability is much greater. I read that even though your body could shut down some aspects of your hearing at the time of the shooting that it doesn't sound that loud to you the damage is probably still done. I had an ND inside the house with a 9mm 4" and the noise was nothing to me. No pain or ringing in my ears. Shooting a 9mm outside without protection was much louder and my ears sounded like I was hearing through a sea shell for a week.
Here is an interesting article about gun decibels and how the numbers are much more multiplied than just added on top. Outlawing silencers is so stupid it is pitiful. As usual the BG are the ones that still have them. Military soldiers lose hearing because they can't even have silencers.
............
http://m14forum.com/hearing/78442-various-noise-levels-firearms.html

I wonder why the sound didn't seem as loud indoors, I would think just the opposite.

 

[megatronrules]

Hi and welcome to THR. I can speak to this personally as I've fired a 357 snub nose inside a house during a SD encounter.

My ears were ringing for three days and my hearing sounded like it was muffled for that time. I'd bet if I have my hearing tested there is probably some hearing loss. Although I think I still hear fine.

The ammo was 125gr 357 JHP's. I don't recall the brand federal hydrashock I want to say. Incidentally I also fired off three rounds with same gun and ammo outdoors. One of my ear plugs wasn't in all the way.

Believe it or not that hurt my ear more than the time indoors. Sounds odd I know but this is my experience.

Always wear hearing protection when shooting. My point being I'd rather be alive to shop for hearing aids than have me or my family hurt or worse.

The experience was not a good one and it's something I hope to never have to do ever again. But I can still hear,I'm still alive and I still carry a snub nose 357 for self defense a Kimber K6S. Great gun very well made,trigger is awesome too. Same size basically as a J frame S&W but 6 rounds.

 

[Armored farmer]

I fired my ported .357 in a hunting situation once without hearing protection. It felt like I had nails shoved in my ears. I have been a lifelong shooter, and have never been overly sensitive to gunfire....but that one hurt.
The sharp blast of the .357, combined with what I consider poor performance on deer caused mype to change my hunting handgun to a .45colt and my defensive handgun to .45acp.

 

[reddog81]

38 Special +P is a great option for a gun that might be used to defend inside your house. That is what I would choose and have seen it mentioned numerous times. Is it a compromise? Yes, but it definitely can get the job done.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

I keep my GP100 loaded with Hornady personal defense loads, as someone said before, in real situation with an adrenalin rush, muzzle blast and recoil is not noticed. I was a grunt 45 years ago, we didn't wear hearing protection except on the range and I don't think troops do nowadays in the field.

 

[Merle1]

Hi and welcome to THR. I can speak to this personally as I've fired a 357 snub nose inside a house during a SD encounter.

My ears were ringing for three days and my hearing sounded like it was muffled for that time. I'd bet if I have my hearing tested there is probably some hearing loss. Although I think I still hear fine.

The ammo was 125gr 357 JHP's. I don't recall the brand federal hydrashock I want to say. Incidentally I also fired off three rounds with same gun and ammo outdoors. One of my ear plugs wasn't in all the way.

Believe it or not that hurt my ear more than the time indoors. Sounds odd I know but this is my experience.

Always wear hearing protection when shooting. My point being I'd rather be alive to shop for hearing aids than have me or my family hurt or worse.

The experience was not a good one and it's something I hope to never have to do ever again. But I can still hear,I'm still alive and I still carry a snub nose 357 for self defense a Kimber K6S. Great gun very well made,trigger is awesome too. Same size basically as a J frame S&W but 6 rounds.

I have read reports that during a life or death encounter - your senses will not act normally.
Some report barely - or not at all - hearing the sound of the shot.

 

[USSR]

I fired my ported .357 in a hunting situation once without hearing protection. It felt like I had nails shoved in my ears. I have been a lifelong shooter, and have never been overly sensitive to gunfire....but that one hurt.
The sharp blast of the .357, combined with what I consider poor performance on deer caused mype to change my hunting handgun to a .45colt and my defensive handgun to .45acp.

+1. While my 686 is not ported, when I shot a deer with it once, the ringing in my ears lasted for several days. Plus, totally agree with the poor performance of the .357 Magnum on deer comment. Like you, I switched to the .45 Colt for deer hunting, and there's a world of difference when a deer is hit with a heavy .45 slug at 1000+fps.

Don

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Do you want to hear or do you want to live?

Settle for one, but hope for both.

Simple logic.

 

[Deaf Smith]

It's common to see the .357 Mag recommended as a self defense round and we've all seen that, in the 125 grain loading, it's the number one manstopper statistically.

This is all well and good but, years ago, I fired a .22 Magnum with no hearing protection out of a 5.5" revolver and I regretted it for a while after that. Based on that one experience I'm reluctant to depend on a full-house .357 load for defense. It seems to me that the blast, the flash (in dim light) and the recoil would make this round tactically less desirable than, say, a 9mm or a heavy .38 +P load.

What's the opinion out there? I know that training plays a big part in preparing for a defensive encounter but I assume that anyone who trains with this round wears hearing protection. How do you prepare yourself for the blast (and possibly the flash) that you'll get in the actual encounter?

Thanks.

The Texas DPS used (and still does to an extent) the .357 Sig and I haven't heard of any deaf Troopers.

The Secret Service uses the .357 Sig and I haven't heard of any deaf SS guys.

The Air Marshals use the .357 Sig and I haven't heard of any deaf Marshals.

And the Sig is about as loud, if not louder, than the .357 magnum.

Deaf

 

[RealGun]

Read the thread to this point and would comment that 357 does not have to be loaded full power. Quite abit of that brutal concussion can be reduced and still have a load performing well above 38 Special. As I recall from the Lucky Gunner cartridge performance data, the 125 grain 357 is the one with the best hollow point expansion, based on the pictures provided with each. Loads like the Speer Short Barrel do it for me, partly because I, like apparently many others, do not carry a full sized gun that can handle the real deal. Bullet expansion and penetration numbers are right where they need to be, so I am not changing my plan.

I experienced an accidental/negligent discharge indoors, killing my band saw (plastic housing), and can attest that 32 H&R is now my ideal carry piece, partly to have 6 shots. It rang my bell, but I quickly recovered. I already had a hearing aid in my left ear, so the sound was amplified.

I too know the 9 mm as a really sharp report that can make me wince at the range with 26 dB hearing protection. It would seem like little relief from the loudness level of the 357. I think it is the concussion of full power magnums that can getcha.

 

[Rexster]

I shot a very disturbed, armed person in June 1993, with a Federal Hi-Shok 125-grain JHC, launched from my 4" GP100. It was a "pop," barely louder than dry-firing, as my ear perceived it. No ringing in my ears afterward. I could hear normal conversation immediately after the shot. I can still hear normally. The entry hole appeared somewhat larger than .357 of an inch, and I could see into the wound; the wound did not close itself. I have seen handgun bullet entrance wounds, before and since, but nothing quite like this.

Some pertinent details.

1. This occurred in an open area, a post office parking lot. This allowed the shock waves and sound waves to dissipate freely. Firing in an enclosed area may result in a different experience.

2. I did have time to get into "body alarm reaction," or whatever your favorite terminology might be. Some prefer "fight-or-flight reflex," or fight, flight, or freeze." Those are OK, too; in this case, I fought. Some folks say this effect drains blood from the important bit in the inner ear, which protects these bits from loud noises. Regardless, I can still ear normally.

3. Hi-Shok is not Hydra-Shok. I do not think Federal uses Hi-Shok today, to market handgun ammo.

4. JHC = Jacketed Hollow Cavity, Federal's trade name for the better-known term Jacketed Hollow Point. Same-Same.

I still like full-pressure 125-grain JHP for defensive purposes, when loaded into heavy guns, such as the GP100, 4" to 6" barrels. My fresh ammo is Speer Gold Dot, because it has been in stock at local retailers. I would rather use the milder 145-grain Winchester Silvertip or Speer 135-grain Gold Dot Short-Barrel load in my smaller .357 weapons; especially the Short-Barrel load with an SP101. My days of thinking that full-velocity ammo, through an SP101, was exhilarating, are over.

Having said that:

A. I would, all else being equal, rather use premium duty-type .45 ACP indoors, or other enclosed areas, that might reflect shock/sound waves toward me. My first handgun love was for the 1911, and while I embraced DA sixgunning during my early LE days, I have always maintained a very close relationship with the 1911 and .45 ACP.

B. I am OK with just about any good, street-proven controlled-expansion ammo in any of the duty/service-level cartridges. Most of the time, on and off the clock, I am most likely to actually engage an opponent with a mundane Gen4 G19, with a mundane stock trigger, loaded with 9mm 124-grain +P Speer Gold Dots. There will almost always be another weapon I would rather have in my hands, but it is so easy/likely for the size-efficient G19 to actually be handiest at any moment in time, and inside of five yards, the Glock is at no disadvantage. Beyond five yards, I do appreciate my personal improved accuracy potential with the 1911 and 4" to 6" revolvers.

 

[Mitlov]

Easy. You don't use the 125gr load, especially in .357 Magnum. The ability to do quick follow-up shots is an important defensive attribute. What I use exclusively is what's known as the "FBI Load". This is a .38 Special +P load that consists of a 158gr lead SWCHP load traveling at 900 fps (+/- 40 fps, depending upon barrel length). This is a proven load that will give expansion, penetration, and allow for quick follow-up shots should they be needed.

Don

All of the defensive ammunition I own for my SP101 is either 38 Special or 38 Special +P. I use 357 Magnum rounds only for recreational purposes at the range. I'm not convinced that modern defensive ammunition in 38 Special +P is any less effective against a two-legged threat if we're talking rounds fired from a snubnose revolver, and it's a heck of a lot more controllable for follow-up shots.

 

[ROD KLOMP]

In an actual encounter, probably the last thing about which you will be concerned is the "blast & flash".

... and Welcome to THR!

I agree, that first shot flash or blast isn't going to make a bit of difference in an attack, you won't even think about it, you will be wanting to get back on target as fast as possible to make a second shot if needed, after that or after it's all over you will remember most of what happened, and sure the flash will be remembered but so what, if you stopped the problem in its tracks that's what matters, a 357 magum is an all around caliber, and can be loaded to suit your purpose, all hand guns shot at night will look like a flame throwern if your eyes have adjusted to the dark...IMHO

 

[jmr40]

There are at least 2 local LE officers that were forced into early retirement years ago after firing 357 mag revolvers in enclosed spaces. One inside a car and one during a struggle when the gun discharged closer to his head than normal. They suffered immediate and irreversible hearing loss that prevented them from being able to pass the physical.

This among other reasons is why you rarely see revolvers carried by LE in any caliber anymore. Real world numbers show 9mm+p ammo shoots a 124 gr bullet at almost exactly the same speed as a 125 gr 357 mag load from typical 4" barrels. With 3X the ammo capacity, more compact handguns, less recoil, and muzzle blast choosing 9mm over 357 mag is a no-brainer.

The 357's still have their place. With longer barrels and heavier loads they fill a niche. But there are far better personal defense options.