Nothing like a laser sight to show me how unsteady my hands are

[vito]

I really like my Crimson Trace lasers, and have installed them on several of my handguns, including the one that is ready for home defense in the middle of the night. But at the range, trying to hold that red dot on the center of the target has made me even more aware that I am just not as steady as I once was (or thought I was). In the movies and on TV that red dot is dead-on and doesn't jump around as it does for me in the real world. But it does let me get a reasonably tight shot group at self-defense distances more reliably that I can usually do with my non-laser guns.

 

[rEVOLVEr VII]

Are you using proper gripping techniques? Everyone shakes a little, I don't care how long you've been shooting, a perfect steady hand is about impossible, so don't worry to much, just try to get a proper grip on the weapon.

I actually find that I hold a firearm more steady with a laser then by looking through iron sights.

 

[M2 Carbine]

But at the range, trying to hold that red dot on the center of the target has made me even more aware that I am just not as steady as I once was (or thought I was).

I'm 74 so you know I'm real steady.

The laser isn't meant to be a bullseye sighting system. It's for fast low light point shooting.
Point the gun, light the laser, pull the laser to where you are looking, as you pressure the trigger. All at the same time and as fast as you can.
With a little practice you can get very fast and accurate.
But personally I am a little slow.



A good example is a (senior) lady's shooting this week. She's a new student of mine and only shot with the laser about 4 times.
Last week for the first time she shot in one of those full size video, law enforcement, shoot/no shoot trainers. I don't know what they are called but different, life like scenarios are played and of course you try to shoot the BG (or girl) before he shoots you.
It's live fire. The woman used her little Beretta 21A 22LR, a .380 Bersa and my Ruger SR9 9mm. All the guns are equipped with Crimson Trace lasers.

The lady was doing pretty good with the 22 and .380 but she used my laser equipped SR9C for the first time.
I was amazed and proud of my student. In one scenario she shot against 7 bad guys, in some quick action, and dropped all seven with the laser equipped 9mm, including reloading.
The program operator said he hadn't seen anyone go through that scenario without being shot.


It's a cool trainer. The best shot I made was a moving head shot on a BG, holding a hostage, just as they came through a doorway, at about 7-8 yards.




.

 

[hermannr]

I can't hold that steady any more either. Found from trap shooting that shooting a moving target is as easy (or as I get older, easier) then a stationary target. As stated, as the lazer comes on point you start to pull such that as you cross, the gun goes bang. That is one of the reasons to practice a lot..so you are very comfortable knowing when the gun will actually fire.

If I try to hold steady, it just cannot be done, especially Olympic style one handed. My Olympic .22 has a really nice adjustable trigger, most SD weapons don't so rather then adjusting the trigger to your pull, you have to learn to adjust your pull to the trigger you have. That takes practice.

 

[rEVOLVEr VII]

The laser isn't meant to be a bullseye sighting system. It's for fast low light point shooting.

Gotta disagree on that one, if anything the laser (if properly aligned) will be showing you the exact spot of where your bullet will go. So call me ignorant if you will..but how is it not a bullseye shooting system? And I would assume that in a FAST confrontation with a BG, your not gonna have much time to activate your laser and drop the target.

But let's do an example, your in your home, the powers out, a BG tears through the front door and you actually have enough time to activate your laser and get a good position before he comes at you. And lets say your shot placement will be the torso, how is that laser, in that low light situation not used for accuracy?

 

[M2 Carbine]

Gotta disagree on that one, if anything the laser (if properly aligned) will be showing you the exact spot of where your bullet will go. So call me ignorant if you will..but how is it not a bullseye shooting system? And I would assume that in a FAST confrontation with a BG, your not gonna have much time to activate your laser and drop the target.

But let's do an example, your in your home, the powers out, a BG tears through the front door and you actually have enough time to activate your laser and get a good position before he comes at you. And lets say your shot placement will be the torso, how is that laser, in that low light situation not used for accuracy?
__________________

I don't totally disagree with you. I said "The laser isn't meant to be a bullseye sighting system.", as in slow, accurate, shoot for little groups bullseye type target shooting. Sure you can use it for that, in low light, but how many people shoot bullseyes in the dark.

Case in point.
While here, in low light, I'm practicing shooting at stationary paper targets (accurate type shooting if you will) I don't consider this bullseye shooting. I'm actually trying to keep all the rounds in the 4x6 inch "kill zone", as in silhouette defense practice

And I would assume that in a FAST confrontation with a BG, your not gonna have much time to activate your laser and drop the target.

Everyone I've seen, with a little practice, "activates" the laser without thinking about it, at the time as the trigger. Unless they light the laser early to use it for intimidation.
This is why you practice. Personally, I am faster and WAY more accurate with the laser, in low light, than with the iron sights in day light.

And as with the lady at the range last week. Even as a new shooter, that started shooting recently, she did far better in moving defense shootings with the laser than she could do with iron sights.

Another for instance.
Another senior lady on her second day shooting.
She was doing very good with iron sights on her first two days shooting, so late on the second day I introduced her to the laser. I installed a Streamlight TLR-2 laser/light on a Ruger for a inexpensive low light practice semi auto.


After a quick laser lesson I told the lady to put all ten bullets in the BG hostage target's head, and she did.

Then I told her, "That was the easy part. Now at 10 yards you must shoot the gun out of the BG's hand, 10 shots.
And she did. I told her that was pretty good but not acceptable, misses are not acceptable.

 

[rondog]

Gotta disagree on that one, if anything the laser (if properly aligned) will be showing you the exact spot of where your bullet will go. So call me ignorant if you will..but how is it not a bullseye shooting system?

Think about this for a bit.....the laser and the barrel bore (or bullet path) are on two different planes. At best, they'll run parallel for a ways, but really you can only adjust the laser to meet the bullet impact point at ONE distance only. Let's say 20 feet. Dial it in for 20 feet and you can hit bottlecaps.

But before and after 20 feet the laser and impact points will be off. As you get closer to 20 feet, they will converge, or move closer together. Past 20 feet, they will diverge, or move father apart. And the farther the target is from 20 feet, the farther off that laser will be from the impact point.

Will they be close enough for defense work? Certainly, that's what the laser is for. My point is that the laser can't be relied upon for precision target work, unless you're only shooting at the exact distance that it's zero'd at.

Try it sometime. Dial a laser in dead nuts at whatever distance you choose, then set up targets 10 feet closer and 10 feet farther. You'll see the bullet holes moving away from the laser dot. It wont be A LOT, but it WILL move. Not enough to affect social work, but possibly enough to cost you points in competition.

Doesn't mean the laser isn't still a great tool and lots of fun though.

 

[rEVOLVEr VII]

Thanks guys, I've been quite informed today.

but she used my laser equipped SR9C for the first time.

Hopefully this isn't to far off topic but my carry weapon is the SR9C, what laser sight do you recommend? Been looking in the market for a while now but haven't found one I like yet, although the viridian laser looks pretty sick.

 

[aaronu]

I was at a range and someone had a laser on his handgun. He had a tough time keeping the laser on the paper at seven yards. Most people there were outshooting him at 20 and 25 yards through iron sights. I remember wondering how much coffee the guy must have drank before going to the range.

 

[rondog]

I remember my very first shot with CT grips on a 1911. They weren't adjusted at all, just put 'em on and put in a magazine. Ran the target out to 7 yds., held the dot on the bullseye, BANG, hole in the bullseye!

The guy in the next lane hurried right over to check it out and ask a hundred questions.

I couldn't make a shot like that again if I had the pistol welded to an anvil.

 

[19&41]

Practice and work with your pistol, it will always shake some. But don't try for TV and movie results. They have to be using tripod mounted lasers when they show folks drawing a bead on the target.

 

[gsreimers]

I bought my wife a bersa thunder 380 with the crimson trace. She shoots it well and I have good success with it, but your right, it really shows how bad I shake. It helped me train the wife also as it pointed out her flinches.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Lasers are a very specialized and highly misunderstood tool in handgun shooting. However their marketing has most people convinced otherwise, almost to the point of replacing the legendary Magic Bullet (the one that will knock someone down if you hit them anywhere with it)

As M2 Carbine posted, it isn't meant (or even suited) for the accuracy game of bullseye shooting. Not only is it less accurate, it is also slower to perceive as being on target...it also can lead to horrible trigger control.

When you see a laser on TV or in the movies holding very still on a target, it is almost always on a shoulder mounted weapon...it mirrors the reality of it being easier to hold sights steady on a rifle than on a handgun. It you have seen a laser pointer used in a presentation, you'd know that the laser is at best an Area Indicator...experienced speakers are careful to always circle the area, with the pointer, that they wish you to focus your attention.

What the laser dot on your target leads you believe is that your shot will hit where the laser is pointed. It will, but not at the point your perceive the dot as being on target, it will be where the dot is at the moment your trigger pull releases the hammer/sear/striker...they aren't the same points. This leads to a new shooter trying to make the shot go off when the dot is where they want to hit. Trying to catch the dot on target has the same result as trying to shoot when your sights are perfectly on target...you'll be jerking the shot low and left.

It is much faster to see aligned open sights, than to pick out a dancing dot on a target. Which brings us to the proper use of laser sights...when you can't see your sights. The classic use is by LEOs when shooting a handgun from behind a plexiglass shield...they literally can't get their eye behind their sights. Another valid use is when ones eyesight is so poor that they cannot focus on the sights,or even the gun, at all. The best use of a laser is as a training tool to detect movement during the trigger press.

If you must use a laser sighting system on a handgun, the most important skill to first learn is the ability to press the trigger straight back without disturbing the alignment of the gun (just as you would with open sights). The next would be to learn to accept your personal wobble zone

 

[ccbricker]

I am right there with you. My laser moves around so much you start to think you are at a Las Vegas show! With all my shaking, if I could just add another 300-500 watts of power to the laser I would use it to cut the bad guy rather than shoot at them.:banghead: This post has been very informative. Thanks for the help!

 

[Blackstone]

Having a laser for bullseye shooting would be a bad idea in my opinion, purely because of the added psychological factor of trying to get the laser in the "perfect" place on the target. I guess it's akin to why a lot of bullseye shooters use a 6 o'clock hold as well.

 

[mavracer]

Think about this for a bit.....the laser and the barrel bore (or bullet path) are on two different planes. At best, they'll run parallel for a ways, but really you can only adjust the laser to meet the bullet impact point at ONE distance only. Let's say 20 feet. Dial it in for 20 feet and you can hit bottlecaps.

Now think a little more. the laser is only a little less than an inch below and lass than 1/2" to the right with most crimson trace grips. Sight them in at 25 yards and they'll never be more than an inch off from the muzzle to 25 yards.

 

[rondog]

Now think a little more. the laser is only a little less than an inch below and lass than 1/2" to the right with most crimson trace grips. Sight them in at 25 yards and they'll never be more than an inch off from the muzzle to 25 yards.

I agree, and that's dandy for self defense use. But too much for precision target shooting.