November 30, 1939--The Mosins Sang

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Cosmoline

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Sixty seven years ago today, on November 28, the Soviety Union renounced its non-aggression pact with Finland and ordered the armies in the Leningrad District to prepare to invade. Two days later four armies, each composed of many full strength divisions, launched a combined assault along the entire length of the Finnish border. In total, over a quarter of a million Soviet troops were brought together to erase Finland from the map forever. As punishment for refusing to go quietly, Stalin almost certainly would have shipped most of the Finnish population off to the RFE and Siberia.

http://www.winterwar.com/mainpage.htm

If you've got one of the steel relics from that war, take it out for a spin.
 
The Finns of the Winter war always reminded me of the definition of Speak softly but carry a big stick.

Amazing what so few were able to do.
 
I plan on honoring that day by getting a deer with one of my Finn rifles. Last year I got a deer with my 1942 VKT M91 Finnish rifle. This year I will probably use either a M91/24 or a 1943 SKy M39. I love those Finn rifles!
 
This past weekend I did bring out both my M28 Civil Guards rifle and my
M91/30 to the range for a little wintertime fun. I was going to do a little "show and tell" for a collector I know who's into M39's but doesn't own any of the earlier Finn rifles, but the flake stood me up to go to a gunshow :rolleyes: .

Anyways, it was neat to have a representative from both sides of the conflict (although that particular 91/30 was made in 1942-oops!) and I took turns shooting them, mostly at a steel plate 100 yards away.

23 out of 25 for the Finn (including the first 22 in a row)

19 out of 20 for the Russian (including the first 16 in a row)

I was pretty good with both, but something about the Civil Guards rifle made it more exciting, since unlike the excellent condition M91/30, its stock is covered with dents and nicks. The blueing is almost completely gone from the magazine/triggerguard, and the rear sight is kinda chewed-up. The stock has six "notches" carved into it, which I presume is the tally for the rifle in it's previous life.
 
Some youtube videos featuring period photos and music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA_m5TPkNuQ&NR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NklwqLG6o-E&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFf2RPY1B9w

This one discusses and shows some of the graphic photos of the Fino-Russian wars that have been kept under wraps until just a few weeks ago. Their appearance on several normally sedate collectors forums has resulted in bitter arguments and closed threads. Not G rated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89iYU82XYAo
 
Read somewhere a Finnish sniper killed like 500 Russians? Sounds way too many, but has anyone else seen that?
 
Simo Hayha, 542 kills, mostly with SMG.

Also, finnish archives released many photos recently that show what the "glorious red army" thought of those "faschist finn pigs". IE gang-raped women, shot dead; or dead children, either simply shot, or thrown into wells (alive, of course). I would write what old folk speak here of the soviet agression during the WWII but it would not be pretty - get's the thread closed and me banned..

If someone still want's to know, the you might PM me...
 
Where did you get the "mostly with SMG" part? I know he used a Suomi as well, but the M-28 was his main sniping firearm.

I doubt if but a miniscule fraction of college students today are even aware of the invasion of Finland in 1939

Part of the problem was the "Finlandization" process after the collapse of the Axis. The Finns had to be very careful not to upset the bear next door, and too much patriotic discussion of 1939 was not encouraged. This seems to have improved as the USSR died off, but there are still a lot of very raw nerves over who did what to whom as well as the Karelian occupation. Personally, I think the Winter War is best viewed as the first war of the Cold War era. Its roots lie in the Red/White struggle and have little to do with WWII as a whole. But it fits the pattern of Communist expansion that caused so much trouble in the decades after WWII was concluded. If it weren't for other concerns in Europe, we would have been on Finland's side. Indeed IIRC Kermit Roosevelt was getting a bunch of volunteers together in the UK to go help before the effort was quashed.

The Continuation War is even less well known stateside, though it fits a little more into the larger Ostfront war.
 
As punishment for refusing to go quietly, Stalin almost certainly would have shipped most of the Finnish population off to the RFE and Siberia.
Well, Stalin took over a good part of the Finnish territory in the end (although losses of Red Army were heavy, in part because of strong Finnish resistance and in part because of poor Red Army tactics); I can vouch for that, i spent last weekend in the former Suomi territories some 60km from St.Petersburg (Leningrad :))
And I've never heard about thousands of Finns being sent to Siberia - after all, this could be a warmer place than Finland itself :evil:
What is more interesting that Stalin never tried to overrun Finland entirely and return it back to empire (remember, before 1918 Finland was a semi-independent part of the Russian empire); In 1944, when Finns gave away with their "continuation war", Stalin left them be - that's because he was a very practical man, in a sort, and not needed any more of Karelian soil.

Remember, before Winter war the Russia/Finland border was just 30km or so away from the city borders of Leningrad. Like any other practical ruler, Stalin wanted to keep borders away from the 2nd most important city in the country; he first tried to negotiate with finns, but i suppose they didn't like the proposition, so Staling decided to do it the same way as US did before with many of former Mexican territories :evil:
I have every respect to Finns, but, in technical terms, they loose both Winter and Continuation war - you can check it by the maps.

Finally and in a cynical note, personally i'd prefer the borders to remain where they were before 1940 - that way the trip to Finland would take me only 40 minutes instead of full 3 hours :cool: But this is just me, and not entirely seriously
 
Any discussion of the Winter War brings to my mind one of the early Special Forces legends- Larry Thorne. I wore a POW/MIS bracelet with his name on it for many years, when the man who had served as his lieutenant in the Winter War visited Fort Bragg, I gave it to him.

Here's part of the story...

lpl/nc
=======

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/larry-thorne.htm
 
And what was Stalin's excuse for Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania? What about Poland? And we won't begin to mention Eastern Europe. The Finns lost both wars, and then were compelled to fight the Germans in the Lapland War. Yet, Russian losses were enormous compared to Finnish. Also, in the Continuation War, Finland merely sought to take back what the Soviets stole in the first place.

As to relativism vis-a-vie US history from nearly 200 years ago versus 70 years go or so for Soviet, the Americans did not line up Mexican officers and men and execute thousands as the Soviets did in the Baltic countries and Poland. In any case, the US is not part of the discussion. Attempting to deflect the issue only furthers the evidence of Soviet attrocities. Further, even the Soviets hated Stalin after his death. Even the Soviets tried to erase him. Hardly a fond endorsement of him nor his activities.

But then, Molotov was only dropping bread, wasn't he, when they bombed Helsinki without provocation?

Ash
 
Ash,

To understand Russian post WWII foreign policy you have to understand the history of Russia. For millenia before and including WWII, Russia was overrun by just about every invading horde on the European and Asian continents. There are very few natural bondaries to the country. After WWII they were determined that it would never happen again. Hence the siezure of Eastern Europe to absorb and dissipate the energies of any future invasions. They were tired of fighting invasions on their soil and found it better to fight enemies on land other than your own. Look at the US in WWII.

After they got nukes, they were not afraid to use them to defend their homeland. They already knew that they could absorb 30 million casualties and survive. Fortunately we have yet to undergo such a scenario ourselves in the US.

Right now my Finnish and Russian rifles are all mingled together in the spirit of peace and botherhood. I just knew that if they could just get together and talk things out they would become friends. :scrutiny:
 
The murder of hundreds of thousands seems a bit high a price for "security."

Oh, I have read and studied Soviet designs since I was in Middle School. During the cold war, I had issues of The Red Star and Soviet War (military paper and magazine respectively) and was learning Russian from a professor at the local junior college who served in the submarine service during the early days of the Cold War (Did you know consideration was made to sink US ships the Soviets "stole" from us by declaring them sunk during WWII but then pressing them into the Soviet Navy without paying for them? After all, if a ship sinks that was already "sunk", can there be an outcry?)

Stalin's justifications could not be justified.

Ash
 
As much as I dislike National Socialism and the attrocities perpertrated by the Nazi's, they paled compared to the butchery of Stalin. Communism killed more people in the 20th century than the French Terror, the Spanish Inquisition, the Wars of Religion in France, the Crusades, the War Between the States, the Franco-Prussian War, combined!

What was Stalin's excuse for the "collectivization" of Soviet troops who took Berlin?

Ash
 
Ash, you almost made me laugh.
First, are there any proofs of those mass murders committed by Red army?
Stalin overrun the miserable Poland and Baltic states simply because he COULD DO that, and thought it was politically reasonable for his country to do that; the same reasons, in my opinion, stood behind US occupation of Iraq or unprovoked NATO bombings of Sarajevo.

Trying to "erase Stalin"... I'm no 'Stalinist' by any measure, but you seem to be too concentrated on Stalin's crimes;
Also, when comparing French terror to Stalin's one, please take into accounrt not absolute numbers, but percentage of country's contemporary population. Also, 30 millions seem to be a bit.. overestimated, or do you mean that 1/4th of entire population was purged?

What was Stalin's excuse for the "collectivization" of Soviet troops who took Berlin?
Excuse me, but what do you men by that? I couldn't get it
 
His purges were politically responsible, the murder of more than 2,000 Polish officers and troops (proven to have been done by the Soviets based on pollen in the noses of the dead troops, pollen that was in bloom only when the Soviets occupied Poland, a fact that cannot be distorted or faked).

The large percentage of Russian troops who had seen the west being put in collective farms.

But okay, let's talk percentages. Did you know only slightly more than 2,000 French died in the Terror? That is a very small percentage of the population. Compare that to the 2 million killed in Cambodia, as a percentage.

But, here is an interesting discussion of the topic from both sides.

# Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000 [make link]

* There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are generally associated with the right and left wings of the political spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
* Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
o Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
+ Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed during the 1930s.
+ Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
+ Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
o Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
o Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
+ 1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
+ 1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
+ 1939-45: 18,157,000
+ 1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
+ TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo. famine
o William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+
o Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
+ Cited by Wallechinsky:
# Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
# Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
o MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during the 1930s.
* And from the Lower Numbers school:
o Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000 "surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
o Cited in Nove:
+ Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8 million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
+ Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the 1926 and 1937 censuses.
+ Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989): 642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
+ Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state prisoners shot, 1931-53.
o Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
o Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at most 8 million.
o MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
* As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the German invasion.
* [Letter]
* Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20 million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness without straining credulity:
o In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50% higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in 1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20 million was the likeliest death toll.
o Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine, executions, etc., citing Medvedev
o Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and after WW2.
o Daniel Chirot:
+ "Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
+ "Highest": 40M
+ Citing:
# Conquest: 20M
# Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
# Medvedev: 40M
o Courtois, Stephane, Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir du Communism): 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
+ Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
+ [Ironic observation: The Black Book of Communism seems to vote for Hitler as the answer to the question of who's worse, Hitler (25M) or Stalin (20M).]
o John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen (2001): 20M, incl.
+ Kulaks: 7M
+ Gulag: 12M
+ Purge: 1.2M (minus 50,000 survivors)
o Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
o Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
o Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
* AVERAGE: Of the 17 estimates of the total number of victims of Stalin, the median is 30 million.
* Individual Gulags etc.
o Kolyma
o Kuropaty
o Vorkuta
o Bykivnia

Okay, now for WWII

# Stalin [make link]:

* Deported nationalities:
o Aleksandr Nekrich, The Punished Peoples (1978): Net population losses, 1939-59, after allowance for wartime losses.
+ Chechens: 590,000
+ Kalmyks: 142,000
+ Ingush: 128,000
+ Karachai: 124,000
+ Balkars: 64,000
+ [TOTAL: 1,048,000]
o Kenneth Christie, Historical Injustice and Democratic Transition in Eastern Asia and Northern Europe: Ghosts at the Table of Democracy (2002)
+ Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonians (1940-41): 85,000 deported, of which 55,000 killed or died
+ Baltics executed during reconquest (1944-45): 30,000
+ Postwar partisan war
# Lithuanians: 40-50,000 k.
# Latvian: 25,000
# Estonians: 15,000
+ [TOTAL: 170,000 ± 5,000]
o Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997)
+ citing Rummel: 530,000 Chechens and other Black Sea/Caucasus minorities d.
+ citing NKVD archives: 231,000 deaths, 1943-49
o Harff and Gurr:
+ Chechens, Ingushi, Karachai, Balkars, Kalmyks: 230,000 d. (1943-57)
+ Meskhierians, Crimean Tatars: 57,000 - 175,000 d. (1944-68)
o Davies: 1,000,000 Volga Germans, Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, etc.
o NewsHour: some 200,000 Chechens died during the exile [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europe/chechnya/history.html]
* Enemy POWs never returned:
o Brzezinski: 1,000,000 total d. (incl. 357,000 Germans, 140,000 Poles)
o Davies: 1,000,000 d.
o Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): official figures released under glasnost
+ Germans: 2,388,000 POWs taken, of which 356,000 died
+ Hungarians, Romanians, etc.: 1,097,000 taken, of which 162,000 died
+ Japanese: 600,000 taken, of which 61,855 died
+ [Total: 4,085,000 taken, of which ca. 580,000 died]
o Katyn Massacre (April-May 1940):
+ Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
+ 30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
+ Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
+ Gilbert: 15,000 Polish POWs sent to 3 camps - Starobelsk, Kozelsk, Ostashkov - all killed. 4,400 from Kozelsk killed at Katyn.
* Returning Soviet POWs killed after the war:
o Harff and Gurr: 500,000 - 1,100,000 repatriated Soviet nationals killed (1943-47)
o Harper Collins: 1,000,000 POWs
o Davies: 5-6M deaths, screening of repatriates and inhabitants of ex-occupied territory
* Soviet soldiers executed:
o Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997)
+ "latest Russian estimates put the figure as high as 158,000 sentenced to be shot."
+ "442,000 were forced to serve in penal batallions." [These were assigned suicidally dangerous tasks, and the only way out was death or wounds, so figure maybe half dead, half crippled.]
* Gulag during the war years:
o Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): 2.4M sent to Gulag; 1.9M freed. "Official figures show 621,000 deaths in the Gulag" during WW2
* Total killed by Stalin during the war years:
o Davies: 16-17,000,000 non-war-dead
o Rummel: 18,157,000 democides


Ash
 
Ash....your are a....

true historian....

My summary....

Stalin was the greatest monster of all human time! Hitler was in the minor leagues by comparison.

"Kids today" have no idea that Stalin killed something close to 30 MILLION of his own people.

Max...denial is a river in Egypt.....

this posted from a man who's three daugthers are 25% Ukranian and who LOVES the Russian people.
 
And I've never heard about thousands of Finns being sent to Siberia - after all, this could be a warmer place than Finland itself

Have you heard about the mass exodus of Karelian Finns back to Finland after the agreement to give those territories to the USSR? Stalin couldn't deport them because they fled to Finland. And by the time the wars finally wrapped up, the USSR decided trying to occupy Finland was both militarily risky and politically problematic. So instead of taking it over, they simply breathed down the nation's neck for half a century. That's annoying, but far better than seeing your whole nation purged and turned into a hunting camp for the party elite. Heck, Stalin even slaughtered a lot of the ardent socialist Finns who'd gone to the USSR for ideological reasons. If he purged them, imagine what he would have done to the plucky whites who'd made him look like a lumbering dolt.
 
Sorry, the 542 was the amount of kills with the sniper rifle (mostly with irons, btw). Besides that he scored approx 200 with Suomi SMG. And it's Simo Häyhä, not Hayha
 
Cosmoline Thank you for keeping the history alive with the white war. The white war is a war that should never be forgotten. It was a struggle against all odds of an extremely courageous country who wouldn't capitulate to a communist bully, the fins knew what they were stacked up against. Most of the finnish soldiers were prepared to die and expected to die for the defense of their country during that terrible short war.
In this day and age we need more "dogs of war" not weak hearted politicians "armchair quarterbacking" from Washington. Most politicians can't even agree to disagree anyway.
 
For that period of time, Finland was in one of the least enviable strategic positions possible and held on admirably.

Only an independent country for a historically short period by the time of WW2, the Finns were northeast of the most aggressive power in Europe and just west of another of the most dangerous, with former overlord and neutral Sweden at its back.

The western democracies were too weak and too distant to help a poor agricultural country whose only serious cash commodities were nickel and timber. The Finns didn't do themselves any favors by seriously underfunding their defense between 1917 and 1939, but they possessed better motivation, leadership, and tactics than did the Soviets. During the Winter War they also had all of the most effective submachine guns, which the Soviets got a very bloody lesson about.

To think that a country of just 3.7 million at the time, with no tank force to speak of, an Air Force featuring a hodgepodge of designs from American and European manufacturers, with a shortage of ammunition for everything they owned, held off the Soviet war machine largely by itself in 1939-40 is nothing short of remarkable.

Finland only agreed to peace terms in 1940 due to attrition they could not sustain, not due to having gotten whacked by superior Soviet anything, other than raw numbers of soldiers.

An interesting gun twist stems from the Winter War. The Suomi KP/-31 designed in large part by Aimo Lahti, and which played a large role in leveling the battle field against the Red Army, was in many respects ripped off lock, stock, 71 round magazine, and smoking barrel by Georgii Shpagin, creator of the PPSh-41, which in turn helped to even things up against the Nazis.

From all accounts, the Winter War and Continuation War were two of the nastiest campaigns ever fought in Europe.
 
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