November 30, 1939--The Mosins Sang

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To bring this back to rifle country, the Talvisota is a good example of why knowing how to shoot well is tactically important. As noted in "Ivan's War" and other sources, the Red Army troops that arrived to take over Finland had little rifle training, much of it with wooden dummy rifles. They went up against a smaller military of citizen-soldiers who had at least competency with their weapons. Some, esp. in the Civil Guard, kept their issue rifles with them 24/7 and had extensive experience shooting them. Finland was a true nation of riflemen.

The USSR, in contrast, had gone to enormous pains to disarm the "comrades", even before the revolution was complete:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1919-mil/ch79.htm

On the battlefield, what this boiled down to is, while the Finns had a shortage of small arms and 54R at the outset, they made up for this by hitting paydirt more often. While this wasn't the whole recipe for victory, it was a key part of it. When combined with good training, excellent knowledge of the local terrain, arctic weather experience and a first class officer corps trained in the best Prussian manner, the Finns were able to do a lot with a little. The Red Army, OTOH, was like "an orchestra played out of time." The individual soliders were actually well motivated at the outset, and expected a romp through Finland to free the proletariat and liberate some nice shiny things. But when faced with determined resistance they found their leadership and training wanting. In the south they did charge after charge after charge, but none of them were well timed and any breakthroughs were isolated. They had vastly superior armor and artillery, but didn't seem to understand how to use it. The Finns, in the mean time, had to use their heavy weapons to maximum effect.

The Red Army's experiences in the icy boreal forests to the north were even more disasterous. They tried to penetrate the heavily wooded countryside to cut the nation in half, but as their lines stretched out over narrow rural roadways, the Finns "chopped them up" into individual pieces, then kept the pieces pinned down and out of communication with the rest of the column. The results there were nothing short of hell on earth, with the remnants of the Soviet forces turning on one another and resorting to cannibalism as Finnish snipers picked them off and ski troops assaulted their lines.

The cold can barely be understood by people from temperate climes. The soldiers there experienced artic cold for sustained periods. Very few military forces have even attempted combat in such conditions. The Soviet forces were dressed for mildly cold fighting in eastern Europe, with basic wool greatcoats, padded jackets and felt boots. But this was nowhere near enough to survive in deep cold for weeks on end. The Finns had excellent equipment, but not enough of it. Their forces also suffered frostbite injuries, though not nearly as many as the Soviets.
 
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Ok, boys, this is a 100% offtopic here, but i'll fire the parting shot.
1st, i wonder what d@ms sources used those Western historians to get their numbers?

The only reliable (that is, based on de-classified MGB / MVD archives) research, made by Russian (this is, post_Soviet) historian Zemskov, suggest following numbers:
Total condemned for political (not criminal) reasons, between 1921 and 1953: 3,777, 380; of those executed: 642.980; exiled: 765.180 (source)
Interestingly, this number of executed is suspiciously similar to a number of civilians, who recently and happily died for democracy in Iraq
Another source gives us total number of arrested as roughly 5,5 millions between 1921 and 1953.
And i must note that these sources are rather "democratic", that is, very anti-Soviet, and all numbers are based on real, unclassified documents.

Speaking on purging the old revolutionaries - this is the story of every revolution (remember France)? Bolshevik party was very far from being united, there were internal parties lead by Trotsky and others; it was typical fight for power, and it has nothing to do with communism, but anything with internal political struggles.

Finally. I'm not trying to 'wash" the image of Stalin. In my view, he was the last Emperor of Russian Empire, a typical tyrant emperor with appropriate ambitions. But i think there were no other ways to bring the country up from the ashes - d@mned Nicolas II was probably the worst Russian Tsar ever, he managed to lost every war he waged and failed every reform his ministers tried.
 
Yes, back to rifles ...

Oh, BTW .. I think about 250 of the kills made by Simo Häyhä were with a Suomi SMG, the rest with an M/28 - with open sights. Forget where that came from but I have seen it in print somewhere.

Now, back t ...

Oh, sorry ... one more thing. Good piece here which brings up some basic points and explains some things - Finland did not lose, nor capitulate;

http://www.kaiku.com/notcapitulate.html

OK ... what kind of rifles??

Ah, Yes! I'd love an M/28 or an M/39. There is just something about a number of plain, basic, sound late 19th/early 20th century battle rifles that is irresistible. Although the M/28 and 39 are top of the heap in these regards, I must add that the historical connection is very strong. And my admiration for the Finns during that conflict, in many respects, runs very deep.

Yes ... the rifles.

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http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
The only reliable (that is, based on de-classified MGB / MVD archives) research, made by Russian (this is, post_Soviet) historian Zemskov...

Ummm, Max, and who is it that declassified those documents? Answer: the FSB/SVR, heir to the Cheka, GPU, OGPU, NKVD, MKGB, and KGB. Sorry, but the number of deaths attributable to Lenin and Stalin are many millions more than what Zemskov is led to believe. On a personal note, I have visited the memorial to the slain Polish officers outside of Kharkov, whose deaths were blamed on the Nazi's by the USSR. It was only in recent years that the Russian Federation owned up to the fact that they did it.

Don
 
Now, all I need to do is find a nice M-39 and I'll be happy.....


Of course, I still want a Kp-31/Suomi SMG. :D
 
Dear Ash.
1.
I hope when you post referencers to Solzhenitsyn, you are aware of his own words in teh text stating his figures are but suppositionsl. Therew was simply no statistical data on that in the East or in the West when he was writing his GULAG Archipelago. The same with most of your sources: being written in 1980-1990s, they reflect the state of things in the US politology: "we repeat any data stated on the issue, and we do not dare say the info belongs to keen enemies of teh state we are analysing". I mean, as the US Congress committees in late 1980s-early 1990s were able to lay hand on USSR statistics top-secret or confidential before, they had to correct much of the "holy cows" of USSR-related stuff.
Need I to remind You that on the base of that statistics the author of the Totalitarism theory (Soviet Russia used to serve an ideal example, a model of a totalitarian state, in numerous references to the issue) had to admit "Totalitarism in teh USSR for some reason has not reached maturity".

In other words, I'd rely much more on statistics collected not when Zbignev Brzezinsky posed with a machine gun on top of Berlin Wall, being on official visit. Max is completely correct: too much of the sources you mention simply let national/political bitterness take over cold reason of a researcher. And no "fake documents by Cheka" can hide the truth so perfectly, that the cross-checks of GULAG documentation shows same figures. But, as in any nation's science, many of the fake authorities, making their reputation on politics rather that history, will die but not admit they had been promoting complete crap for decades. Yeah, I mean some nice exaggerations by Beavor, etc.

2.
Also: has been laughing much and wild, having read about Soviet troops "sent to collective farms" for seeing West. The source You could have found that passage in, is completely ingorant of the Soviet reality. They could have been sent to paint fences as Tom Sawyer all the same.

3.
Nope, Molotov was not dropping bread. He was bombing (he, indeed? Nice image of the US President or a Secretary of State in a bomber, dropping the Fat Man on Nagasaki...) the country that welcomed a handsome host of German troops, while the war between Germany and USSR had already been declared. You are no neutral in a war, if you show your hospitality to any party's military.

Dear LAK!
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doubt if but a miniscule fraction of college students today are even aware of the invasion of Finland in 1939.
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And please, speaking to those that do, try to estimate the percentage of those:

- who knows that before 1939's invasion to Finland was 1921's or 1922's (fail to remember the correct date) invasion to Russia, the Finns even took Petrozavodsk.

- who knows that by results of Munchen treaty, Czechoslovakia was not devoured by Germany, but divided between Germany, afair Hungary and POLAND. They speak much of a hot stuff about Soviet aggression against poor Poland, but who speaks of the Polish aggression against the rich industrial part of Czechoslovakia... Not to mention a nice diplomatic note "Poland does not allow USSR to render help to Czechoslovakia; if Soviet planes go through the Polish arirspace, they will be shot down", which was the reason USSR denounced the nonaggression pact with Poland in early 1939

- if at that point any dares say "before 1920-and-something it was Polish territiry" - who can answer the question "and please what on earth is the difference with Poland, Baltic states and Finland before 1917?" He who has a house of glass...

(keeping it back to topic)
- who knows that really the chain of aggression in Europe had started in Munchen - the place where Germany took what it wanted from Britain and France in exchange for the notorious "peace for our generation", while the USSR reps were not even invited! Be it not Britain, Germany would have never gained about 20-40 percent of European military trade & production (Ceska Zbroyovka making machine-guns for Vermacht! Aero Vodokhody plant, that started produced Luftwaffe fighter and recon planes in hundreds!!! ) to arm their military. All in all, Czech plants made tanks (Pz-35(t), and Pz-38(t), that was started under German rule already!), airplanes (some Vokke Wulf models, afair, not sure about Messerschmitt), automatic rifles and machine guns, - and that is only what I know for sure.

To all:

The truth is that few ever thought of the fact that the Bolsheviks never were the ruling force of the revolution, they were but a part of a coalition that won the October overturn, and became the only political power only by early 1920s. Thus, let's put a line between the Revolution, the atrocities of the Civil War, the sheer Imperialistic activities of the Bolshevik party with and without Stalin... Those are different, they are. And the events of 1939 are much more fascinating if one remembers that there is no blank sheet in politics, that anything starts from something, and the 1939's anything started in 1938. Most interesting and most reasonable are the actions of all parties if we treat not political rhetoric but treat the events in terms of imperialistic policies. I mean ALL parties - be it Japan, US or the Soviet Russia.

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p.s. yep, I agree with Max, that Stalin was a bloody tyrant, but that was much more practical of a leader than the last Russian tsar, or a bunch of political loosers and adventurers that pretended they ruled Russia between February and October, 1917.
 
To our Russian friends here, read my post. It showed both sides of the argument. It was not one sided, but showed both sides. I was being objective and am willing to admit that some sources I have read are not accurate. Do the same. The Soviet Union had a history of lying and making up numbers. You better to more than just regurgitate. Stalin was an evil man and your sad game of moral relativism doesn't even come close to addressing the issue at hand, and that was the Winter War and how unjust the Soviets were in attempting to conquer that nation. If you recall history, it was the Soviet's illegal and aggressive act against a neutral nation that got it kicked out of the League of Nations. And, my Russian friends, it is the height of hypocracy to condemn US actions in the War in Iraq. What you have done and are doing in Chechnya is barbaric compared with Iraq. If you will note, Iraq is self governed and the deaths currently come from fighting between two factions, not US bullets. I'm not a fan of the Iraq war, but you have nothing, NOTHING, to say about that. Bombing of Yugoslavia was done to halt ethnic cleansing, not to conquer land. As the Hungarians and the Czechs about Soviet tanks rolling in. Ask folks shot for trying to escape the Berlin wall.

But, worse, most Americans don't compare Russia and the USSR. We condemn actions taken by Stalin and his ilk but do not think badly of Russians or of Russia. Frankly, we generally view (and that is a mistake) Russia as a friend. So when we point out the barbaric conquest of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, parts of Romania and Finland, (while bashing the US over Mexico, I don't hear you offering to return land to those nations, conquered more than 100 years more recent). What about the environmental abuses STILL being perpertrated by your nation that reflect the absolute worst actions in the US 125 years ago? You want to sling mud, we can.

But come on, when I mentioned Stalin, I personally did not mean to bash Russians or Russia today. I would happily bash Sheridan and the shameful acts against the American Indians. Mexico, much less. Personally, I like Russian people. On my wrist is a Poljot watch. I have three 91/30 sniper rifles in addition to Finn and Russian and Soviet arms. Don't take my condemnation against Stalin as a condemnation of Russia. Like I said, even the Soviet Union tried to forget (officially DID forget) Stalin. Even YOUR people officially disowned him. Why defend him now?

Ash
 
In retrospect, there was ultimately one positive outcome of the Winter War for the Soviets, and that was the hard lessons about cold-weather combat that they learned. Without those lessons, the Soviets might well have lost at Stalingrad. Who knows.

To keep it gun-related, here's my small piece of Russian and Finnish history:

gallery_260_23_40022.jpg


That's a hex-receiver SA M39 (1942 VKT) built on an M1891 receiver dated 1905, of Izhevsk manufacture. It was upgraded to M39 status in 1942 in Jyvaskyla. Someone to whom it was issued delicately carved the initials "E.T." into the rear sight base, where they wouldn't easily be seen. I wish I could find out that guy's name.

The receiver proof mark is the imperial crest of the czar (double headed eagle).
 
<---poor student, newly married. I can't afford great ammo "just" for target practice. I have a few boxes of decent softpoints, but I can't afford $12/box.
 
Also: has been laughing much and wild, having read about Soviet troops "sent to collective farms" for seeing West. The source You could have found that passage in, is completely ingorant of the Soviet reality.

Posadnik: The source I read about Operation Keelhaul was by a Russian named Tolstoi, in his book "The Secret Betrayal".

And don't get so greedy, the US gets more than half the credit for that atrocity.. it was our troops that rounded up 2.5 million Russians (some from Italy, civilians not even involved in the war) at gunpoint and put them on the trains to Siberia. And keep some perspective here... you have to add all Stalin's and Hitler's killing together to equal Mao. And Pol Pot still holds the all-time record for percentage genocide of his own country (financed in the last stages by the US, of course).

It isn't that Americans don't like Russians, it's that we don't trust governments. Especially the one that parasitizes our country and subsidizes the kleptocrats in yours.

As far as the Continuation War goes, it's really weird. The Finns did so well fighting with numerical inferiority in 1940... then in 1941-45 lost their strategic sense. They helped a forlorn force of Germans in a frontal attack on Murmansk from Petsamo, which failed. But they could have attacked anywhere along the Karelian Peninsula and cut off the supply of Lend-Lease supplies. The Red Army got more than half its trucks from Lend-Lease; that would have changed the Eastern Front.
 
The Finns held two tigers by the tail at the same time Russia and Germany IMHO. They chose the lesser of two evils. Let's not mention the cowardice of Sweden who refused to allow aiding countries to cross it's territories when the Finns needed it most. The world turned their back on Finnland.
 
"... Stalin was an evil man and your sad game of moral relativism doesn't even come close to addressing the issue at hand, and that was the Winter War and how unjust the Soviets were in attempting to conquer that nation. If you recall history, it was the Soviet's illegal and aggressive act against a neutral nation that got it kicked out of the League of Nations...." Ash

The sad thing is that the average Soviet soldier was told that they were going to Finland as liberators. They were going to be greeted by cheering throngs of Finnish workers with flowers.

It didn't turn out that way.

Gun related content: I have 1 Finn capture N.E.W. M91, 1 Tikkakoski M91, 1 M28, 2 captured M91/30s and 3 M39s.
 
posadnik
The truth is that few ever thought of the fact that the Bolsheviks never were the ruling force of the revolution, they were but a part of a coalition that won the October overturn, and became the only political power only by early 1920s. Thus, let's put a line between the Revolution, the atrocities of the Civil War, the sheer Imperialistic activities of the Bolshevik party with and without Stalin... Those are different, they are
How true it is. And it is industrial oligarchy that has used party fronts and frontmen as the rallying flags and vehicles for power. Communist Russia has been no different and remains so to this day.

As for Finland invading Russia in the 1920s; could it be the East Karelians you are talking about? Of course we could go back to the year 1710 and the city of Vyborg.

The rifles!! There is something so simple, so basic - almost primitive - in the form of 19th/20th century bolt-action battle rifles like the M/28 and 39. Yet they remain so potentially effective at the same time.

-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Telomerase:
there is a specualtion within some historians (looks reasonable but not supported by any documents) that Mannerheim really was not agressive against Russia. Thus the war doctrine of Finland was "take what's [we consider] our own, and as for all the rest - we show eagerness to fight but never break our backs in doing so". Thus, teh Finns just took what had been taken by the USSR, and stopped. Murmansk operation must have been obvious to never be won, so the Finnish military leaders could be sure that wouldn't have done much harm to the USSR. Something like this.
We really appreciate the trucks, the locomotives and all that stuff the US sent to spare effort for the overstrained USSR economy producing weapons. We started making good weapons in good numbers by 1944, but before that teh help was priceless. BTW, there were 2 railway lines moving lend-lease goods - from Murmansk and afair from Archangelsk.

And, - I guess I got what Ash meant about the troops. Operation Keelhaul - that was about POW camps refusing to return to the USSR, yes? But that was not "for seeing the West". That was the people who at least formally violated the order to not surrender. Thus, the _formal_ duty of the Allies was to pass the Sobviet citizens to the Soviets.
And all the rest was on the lap of God, as you American say sometimes. Not all of them went to exile or were executed. Even the collaborants, the Polizei, were not so often executed as the Soviet propaganda insisted (all that stuff with hanging, so popular in 1940s regarding those Russians involved in Nazi atrocities). There is some evidence even from the books Ash referred to - of the ex-Polizei who were seen among teh wardens and "revealed" by the prisoners - and who found out to have served their time and then volunteer as prison camp wardens.

LAK:
and what is more about the rifles (I have gotten down to the topic, haha...): the simplicity was imho and afaik the result of the "mass war tool" principle, a simple tool that is hard to break.
I have read the extracts from the reminiscences of the Russian experts sent to Remington plant to start production of Mosin rifle back in 1915. Their word went like this: the Americans were good at piecework, but they were not used to run mass production (the rifles at Remington's used to need hand finishing while the basic demand of the Russian military was that any part of the rifle could fit into any rifle, to avoid repair problems). There was plenty of chaos about the Russians being slow to provide all the drawing or adapt it to the US production - but the US part as well was only learning to make a mass production - the rifles in 1915 went in dozens and hundreds, in 1916 - in hundreds and thousands, and the whole due amount was not made by end of contract in January, 1917. As well, there were serious complaints about teh quality of the US Mosin: overtempered cartridge chamber, poor fixation of the bayonet, sharp edges cutting the fingers of the user, sight base made not onmepiece with the barrel as in the Russian issue, and even poor fixation of the bullet in the cartridge. Something like this.

But, who knows, be it not for the Russian order, the Remington plant could have failed the mass production for the US army when it was ordered in afair 1917...
 
The Finns held two tigers by the tail at the same time Russia and Germany IMHO. They chose the lesser of two evils. Let's not mention the cowardice of Sweden who refused to allow aiding countries to cross it's territories when the Finns needed it most. The world turned their back on Finnland.
Just to give a little perspective here, Sweden controlled some of the most strategic iron ore reserves in the entire European theatre. Naturally they would be wary of letting any side come into their country on the premise of "just travelling through" in order to help Finland.

Information has come out after the war that showed Britain and France had clear ideas to send a large force of troops through Norway and Sweden to help Finland, but most of those troops were actually ordered to take and hold the strategic iron mines and never actually make it to Finland.

And to keep this somewhat rifle related, I want to buy an M39 from these guys:
http://www.gunsnammo.com/

Anyone bought a rifle from them and how was the condition?
 
U Posadnik: I think you're right about Mannerheim. Although it's not a good idea to attack either the SU or the US halfheartedly!

>BTW, there were 2 railway lines moving lend-lease goods - from Murmansk and afair from Archangelsk.

Yes, I know... but they didn't have nuclear icebreakers in 1942, and Archangel's harbor freezes. Plus, there was no reason not to attack the bridges of the Archangel railroad. Skorzeny wanted to do such raids but was overruled.

>And, - I guess I got what Ash meant about the troops. Operation Keelhaul - that was about POW camps refusing to return to the USSR, yes?

Not just POWs although they were included. There was also the Vlasov Army which had surrended to the Western Allies, and a variety of other Russians including 90,000 Russo-Italians who had been living in Italy since the 1920s. Study the US government carefully and you will learn that it is far worse than the Communist kleptocrats claimed (because it helped them a lot).

Oh! I actually have a rifle question! All you milsurpers: should I buy an M39, K31, or a Swedish Mauser? And why? (And enough with the "buy them all" stuff, I don't have room and don't want to stock different calibers).
 
Oh! I actually have a rifle question! All you milsurpers: should I buy an M39, K31, or a Swedish Mauser? And why? (And enough with the "buy them all" stuff, I don't have room and don't want to stock different calibers).
Well, I currently own a Swedish Mauser, and am looking to pick up an M39.

The Swedish Mauser, to me, is the pinnacle of the bolt action surplus rifle. It uses the classic Mauser action and has it chambered in the ultra-efficient 6.5x55 round. The high ballistic coefficient and low recoil makes this probably my favorite cartridge. I would highly recommend getting one of these with the only caveat being the ammo isn't the easiest to find.

The M39, to me is all about taking a crude but effective Russian rifle and turning it into a real work of art. The main reason I want one is because of how reliable the typical Russian engineering is, and combined with the Finn's desire to squeeze as much accuracy out of it, seems like a perfect combo. Not quite as refined as the Swede and the cartridge is your typical .30 caliber round, but 7.62x54R ammo is super cheap. I want one of these also because it will be much cheaper to feed than the Swede.

The K31 has never held much appeal to me, but I think I'm in the minority. It uses a really ingenious straight-pull bolt that is supposedly very quick to cycle, and shoots a round very similar to the .308. Ammo for these is also harder to find but the gun is supposedly up there with the Swede as being the most accurate of the milsurps. This will be the cheapest of the 3 rifles you listed to buy, so you might want to grab one now before they end up in the near-$300 range of the M39s and Swedish Mausers.

Anyway, sorry to go OT with that. Hopefully it won't be minded too much.
 
Anyone bought a rifle from them and how was the condition?

I bought an unissued "B" Barrel M39 from them after seeing a friend's unissued Sako purchased from the. Both rifles are fantastic and flawless. I enjoyed my "B" Barrel so much I bought a VKT from them as well. That one is also a very nice rifle and I use it as a shooter, although it's no slouch in the looks department either. I started a picture thread about Scandinavian rifles a while back and you can see pictures of both my M39's in it. I'd recommend them and would buy from them again. Actually, looking at the list they are currently offering, I'm kinda tempted, but 'tis the season for giving.

As for the which one (M39, K-31, or Swedish Mauser) I say buy the K-31 now, and then pick up the other two when you find a good deal. ;)
 
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