Numbered chamber and shot both colts (pictures)

[BowerR64]

I took these 2 to the range today and shot em both. usins 2 hands wresting my for arms on a sand bag.

I started at 7 yards to get an idea where they were close. They didnt seem to far off so i moved the target out to 15.

The .36 is a hawes firearms older from the 70s i think. It has had a broken bolt in the past and i got one to work with some dremel work. To me the cylinder is still kinda loose once it locks up the cylinder can still wiggle a little.

The .44 hasnt had anything done to it. Both dont shoot very good IMO the .44 is slightly better.

.36 i used a level scoop from a .40 cal case (about 20grains) 2F Tripple 7
.44 i used a level scoop from a 45ACP case (about 26grains) 2F Tripple 7
No wads, bore butter over ball and remington #10 caps

Can anyone see a problem? Is it my shooting? Im about ready to get rid of them both.

 

[72coupe]

Two questions.

How good a pistol shot are you?

What were you expecting?

 

[BowerR64]

I havnt been able to do any good with the 2 colts.

The 2 remingtons im decent with at the same distance.

Im trying to figure out why i cant get them to shoot as consistant as the remingtons.

I dont know what to expect really these are the only 2 ive shot so i dont know if this is just how thry are going to be or if i have an issues with them.

 

[vagunmonkey]

Have you tried reducing your load? Maybe 20g and 15g.
What about filler?

Also, why t7 in the Colts and Pyro in the Remington? Have you tried other powder in them?

 

[BowerR64]

I just wanted to try the pyrodex again and i forgot how much i hate it. The fouling is like sticky tar the T7 is more dry i prefer it.

I had some 2F pyrodex so i tried it to see the difference. Its about the same as far as accuracy but the fouling is bad.

I havnt really messed much with the filler. Will a lower charge give a more consistant shot? tighten groups?

I like the T7 because its slightly hotter, the 2F is slower so i increased the charge of it so it takes more volume in the chambers to bring the ball up but still feels to have about the same pop.

I was shooting 20G 3F T7 in the .44 and 13G 3F in the .36. My groups got better switching to the 2F so i just figured the same charge in the colt would be ok.

I dont really know what im doing and i know some of my questions are dumb and silly but it never hurts to ask plus its something to do when im not shooting.

 

[kBob]

Isn't the .44 the same gun that has the bulged barrel in your other current posts?

May have something to do with the accuracy despite what some of us wrote about that......

Some around here are apt to come on shortly and tell you that brass frames are the spawn of Satan and that is your problem with the .36. They seem to think Brassers are not put together as well as steel frame guns and so not much should be expected of them.

-kBob

 

[BowerR64]

These 2 i have the most trouble with. I thought numbering them would help identify a problem. I may just need to shoot them more and try different loads i guess.

I think i should of numbered the remingtons wich im having better luck with sept for a few flyers

Yes that .44 is the one with the wrinkle in the barrel. I guess i shouldnt expect to much from that one.

 

[Dframe]

Most black powder guns shoot a bit more accurately with less than full charges. Many people use a filler. If you have a damaged barrel you MAY never achieve the accuracy you desire. However there is still a large amount of experimenting you can do to maximize your guns potential. I'm not one of the "brassers are junk" people. Many brassers shoot very well. You just need to be aware they are not as strong as steel guns and should be used with more gentle loads (which are often more accurate anyway). Good luck.

 

[vagunmonkey]

I would definitely play with the load before giving up. I found 18g of Swiss 3F with filler, or 13g of Goex 4F with filler to shoot best in my 44 at 25 yards.

Start with 2g increments from 14g to 30g (with filler) and see what gives you the best group. Then work that load +\-1g.

After you find the "best" load for the cylinder, I would then try and isolate the chambers by numbering them as you have.

 

[kituwa]

On your .44 1860 i would shorten the barrel back past the bulge, but if you are not able to do that kind of work then your best bet would be a new barrel, then you would have a shooter. The .36 prolly just needs some tune up to make sure it is locking up right and the chambers are aligned to the barrel good. On the other hand, you can part them out on ebay and get more for parts than the guns are worth most times.

 

[Hellgate]

If the cylinder chambers are too small they won't shoot well. Mike the chambers and the bore and see how close they are.

 

[desidog]

Is that front sight installed backwards?

 

[EljaySL]

Definitely play around with the loads. At 7 yards even trying every 5 grains you might get some pretty amazing variations. I also find that the first couple of shots are often not that great until it gets dirty, and then the gun will shoot more consistently for a few cylinders until it gets gummed up. You might also play with ball diameter a bit - if you go a bit larger you can get more material in contact with the rifling (so .454 versus .451 as an example).

Just to give you some idea here's some notes from my .45s
1858 - more accurate 25gr 777 with .454s and wads, but with 35gr with conicals.
1860 - shoots more accurately with 30gr and the .454s
Walker - likes 35gr best, .457s and wads.
And then I have one of those ahistoric but fun brass 1851s that runs really well at 17gr 777, .454s, wads.

Update: I also noticed that you're using 2F for some reason. All my #s above are for 3F. Speaking of which, you should try 3F and see if they like it better.

 

[72coupe]

20 grains of T7 in my 36 is a really stiff load. But it will hold the black at 25 yards.

 

[BullSlinger]

I have no problems with my brass framed guns, they shoot as well as the steel. Guess I may see a difference after I shoot them for another 25 years.

 

[BowerR64]

I think there is some 4F goex around here some where ill have to find it. My dad used that with his flintlocks.

Ide rather get rid of it before cutting the barrel down. They are still fun to shoot but blackpowder is more atracting at the range when poeple see how well they can shoot.

Its embarrassing shooting the colts when they are all over the place like this.

I may have to put the Rogers and Spencer in the pile also unless i can figure it out.

The remingtons came around fast it seems like.

Cabelas has a .44 just like my .36 ide rather have a .44 over the .36 but i still like the way the .36 looks.

 

[Hellgate]

I was just looking at the photos of the Colts and I'm wondering if they have excessive cylinder gaps. Take a piece of typing/copy paper and see how many layers fit between the cylinder and the back of the barrel. Two thicknesses would be ideal. Most copy paper is .0035" thick so two thicknesses gives a .007" gap which is what I like. Three layers would put it to over .01" which is pushing it. If you have an automotive feeler guage kit that would be the best to determine cylinder gap.

 

[BowerR64]

The .44 is good the .36 has a HUGE gap but i cant get it any tighter the arbor wont turn in any more.

The better the gap the better it will shoot? I wasnt sure what this did if the gap is to wide.

The .36 i can get 4 sheets to slip threw it, the .44 i cant get one, the remington shooter i can get 1 to slip threw but its tight, the brass trigger version i can get one threw loose.

Maybe i need to add some gap to the .44? and take the gap down on the .36?

Also you want to measure it when holding the cylinder pushed back as if its being fired the recoil pushes the cylinder back right?

 

[Hellgate]

A large cylinder gap is going to bleed off a lot of the powder of the powder charge. Your 36 may be "shot loose" (the cylinder pin may be pulling out of the frame or the back of the cylinder may be battering the recoil shield or both) and that will allow the barrel to migrate forward or the cylinder to go backward to open up the gap.

Since both guns shoot poor groups, the problem may well not be the gaps since only one has an excessive gap.

Did you mike the chambers? They often are too small for the bore diameter and the ball has less contact with the barrel and poor accuracy results. The chambers ought to be about .001 (one thou) larger than the groove diameter of the barrel.

 

[BowerR64]

Yeah i noticed it when i shot a 20G load of 3F T7 it felt really loose when i got home. Its been kinda loose ever since.

Its never shot good though so nothing really changed sept it got a little loose.

 

[Hellgate]

The T7 is a hotter powder and equivalent to about 25 grs FFFg BP. 15grs T7 in the 36 would be easier on the gun.

 

[BowerR64]

ok i shimmed it behind the cylinder with some R/C car parts i have. I put a little metal shim that pushed the cylinder forward enough that now its gapped 2 sheets of paper.

Ill try it tomorrow and see what that does.

I also backed out the screw on the .44 wich opened its gap a little.

What about 20G of T7 2F in the .36?

Right now im using a 9mm scoop of 2F wich is about 13-15g but will 20g of 2F T7 be ok on the brass frame?

When i measure the chambers they measure .370 wich seems right because im using .375 balls and they almost drop right in with little to no effort. The barrel seems slightly tighter. If i measure the barrel i get different measurements dpending on where i measure because of the lands and grooves.

I like how easy the colts are to clean but they seem easy to mess up.

IMO removing the front of the barrel can make it easy to put back together different each time you clean it changing its accuracy every time you take it apart.

Thanks for the info on the gap i never knew what it was supose to be at, this might make all the difference.

 

[[email protected]]

It is very difficult to shoot a pistol from a rest. A pistol must not be something
hanging out there off your hand or something your trying to aim off a rest.
A pistol must be a part of you. An extension of your hand and body. You must
be one with it. Hard to explain exactly, but pistol is very difficult, the revolver
being the hardest style to shoot accurate . Mostly when we are looking for
ways to make a pistol shoot more accurate we overlook the most important
thing, that is to look in the mirror.
Phil

 

[kBob]

Phil,

SO what you are saying is......

"At Last! My arm is whole!"

how...Zen.

-kBob

 

[Dframe]

If your brass gun was battered a bit it's entirely possible that the Arbor has loosened in the frame (see heligates post above). Many of the inexpensive Italian imports from the 60s and 70s were damaged by excessive force applied to the loading lever, loosening the arbor where it enters the frame. For most guns I use a loading tool to avoid stressing the load lever and ram. If your ball is almost a slip fit in the cylinder it may be undersized. Most guns prefer a ball is slightly oversize or that at least fits tightly. The old "rule of thumb" was that it should shave a small ring of lead when the ball is rammed home. Some shooters lightly chamfer the front of the cylinder so the ball is slightly swaged in, rather than have it cut that ring. My Rogers & Spencer is one of the most accurate guns I've ever owned.