OAL Gauges-bullet comparators?

[Axis II]

I have been doing some reading and watching a few videos and im interested in a Hornady OAL Gauge and bullet comparator to try and make my ammo a little more accurate. right now i am making a dummy round and coloring the bullet with a sharpie and seating little by little until it chambers smoothly and no marks on the bullet. do you guys use this Hornady tool and if so any thoughts on it helping shrink my groups?

any information is greatly appreciated.

 

[Blue68f100]

I still do it the old fashion way. I size or modify a case to hold the bullet loosely. If you have bushing dies this can be done pretty easily. Then seat the bullet long and push it in by hand till it stops. Remove and measure the OAL. I do this several time making sure I'm not changing the length when removing. And to ensure that the bullet is not stuck in the lands. I do this with every weight bullet and mfg I shoot in my rifles. This is required if you get a minimum spec chamber. Some OAL suggested in Load data will put you into the land.

I've thought about making my own. Not hard to do if you can find some brass tubing that has sufficient wall thickness. I also think it might be batter to D&T the bottom of the bullet so it will stay on the inner rod to push the bullet forward.

Not sure this will improve your groups or not. Way too many variables. When working up groups I use a led sled to minimize the human error (ME). Running them over a crony helps to see whats going on too.

Practice is one of the main things in improving your groups. Always use bags when testing, front and back.

 

[Bartojc]

What you are doing has worked for many folks for years. I have the Hornady tool, and usually use it what trying a new bullet. It's not perfect and without its own issues. The special case will likely not be identical to a sized case of your own so you will still be a few thousandths off.

As far as it shrinking your groups, I really don't know. It just another tool in your box. Personally I think seating to the lands or into the lands is overrated, and I try not to do it. I like to play it safe so I generally an a fair amount back. I'm far from and expert. Someone else around here may be able to expand on this part of the question for you. I just wanted to say that the tool does what it says it does and it's just another way to do what your doing. I have one and like it. It makes it easier to find max COAL for a given bullet profile.

Jeff

 

[Axis II]

blue.

I've got a short chamber also so that got me thinking about using this tool. Book says v max should be 2.250 and I'm at 2.225-2.230 without marks on the bullet-anything longer its hard to chamber and i get rifling marks on the colored or smoked bullet. i want to be a little safer but also figured if i could get closer safely it might shrink them a little bit.

 

[Blue68f100]

The last thing I do is adj the OAL, once I have found the best load. I normally always start off with Book OAL. Shoot a OCW and/or ladder test, then work on each side of the best grouping. Once I'm sure I have found the best/middle of the optium charge, then I will play with the OAL in 0.005" changes. This works best if you have a micrometer seating die to make the changes. As the bullet it self will give you a variation of several 1/1000ths.

There are many times where the powder/bullet combo just does not work out. Then it times to move on to a different bullet/powder.

I prefer to start around 0.020" off the lands. But not always.

 

[Bart B.]

What do you do with your bullet seating specs as the barrel throat advances in the barrel .010" for every 100 to 200 rounds fired?

 

[Blue68f100]

Bart, I don't know if you were asking me, but I don't chase the lands. I just don't want to jam a bullet into them when I working up a load. I have no place to shoot past 200 yrds so it really does not come in to play. If it accuracy becomes a issue, I will adj accordingly.

 

[rfwobbly]

I still do it the old fashion way. I size or modify a case to hold the bullet loosely. Then seat the bullet long and push it in by hand till it stops. Remove and measure the OAL. I do this several time making sure I'm not changing the length when removing. And to ensure that the bullet is not stuck in the lands. I do this with every weight bullet and mfg I shoot in my rifles. This is required if you get a minimum spec chamber. Some OAL suggested in Load Data will put you into the land.

This is also an excellent way to find the Max OAL for auto pistols. The only difference is that with pistols I subtract an additional 0.015". This because 1) due to the higher rate of fire, pistols don't typically benefit as much from "touching the lands", and 2) due to higher reloading rates, pistol cartridge OAL tolerance variations are much more generous, thus requiring greater clearances to insure the pistol slide can go into battery.
.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

The last thing I do is adj the OAL, once I have found the best load. I normally always start off with Book OAL. Shoot a OCW and/or ladder test, then work on each side of the best grouping. Once I'm sure I have found the best/middle of the optium charge, then I will play with the OAL in 0.005" changes. This works best if you have a micrometer seating die to make the changes. As the bullet it self will give you a variation of several 1/1000ths.

There are many times where the powder/bullet combo just does not work out. Then it times to move on to a different bullet/powder.

I prefer to start around 0.020" off the lands. But not always.

Good advice, ill add a here here!

 

[NeuseRvrRat]

I like the Hornady tool. Drill and tap a sized case like what you will be loading instead of using their special cases. It doesn't matter that the bullet is not attached to the inner rod. You tighten the thumbscrew and the rod doesn't move. Then just push the bullet up against the rod with your caliper when you measure, preferably with a comparator that measures off the ogive.

Much faster than the candle smoke method, which is how I started out.

 

[gahunter12]

I use the Hornady OAL gauge, and Bullet comparators. I will usually use these tools to find my OAL to the lands, and record it. Then I will seat .020" deeper to work my up my load. Once I find my load, then I start adjusting my seating depth .005" at a time until I find where my rifle likes it. Then if I find two depths that work, I will go half way between.

I'm currently working on a load now where I found my seating depth with a single charge weight .5gr above minimum, and will work up my load from there. I read a pretty good post on the Nosler forum about this (The Berger concept). I figured I would try it, and see how it works out for me.

 

[fguffey]

I drill out the primer pocket/flash hole to a diameter that will accommodate a cleaning rod. After drilling the hole I size the case; I find it necessary to size the case to get bullet hold because I want all the bullet hold I can get. After sizing and seating a bullet I place the sized case into the chamber with the bullet seated short and then use a cleaning rod to push the bullet out of the case until is contact the lands. When the bullet contact the lands I stop pushing and then remove the case with the bullet.

After I remove the case with the bullet it becomes a transfer, I then place the transfer into the shell holder and raise the ram with the seating die installed but loose meaning I have the seating plug backed out and the die high enough to prevent crimping. After raising the ram I adjust the die to the case and then lower the seating plug to the bullet. After the adjustment of the die and seater stem my die is adjusted to 'ZERO' off the lands. If I choose to seat the bullet off the lands I use a height gage to lower the seating stem.

Again, I do not seat a bullet into the lands, I am the fan of the running start, I insist on the bullet jump.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Forgot, I do not find it necessary to purchase the Hornady tool, those that use the Hornady tool have to adjust the die to the case and then adjust the seating stem. I go straight to adjusting and I know how far the lands are from the bolt face for future reference if I save the transfer. And then if anyone wonders about what was transferred? The transfer transferred the measurement from the lands to the case head to the seating die.

My understand is: Hornady never got around to making a gage that was not case/bullet friendly, meaning the Hornady gage is not accurate and should be used as comparator.

F. Guffey

 

[Axis II]

I drill out the primer pocket/flash hole to a diameter that will accommodate a cleaning rod. After drilling the hole I size the case; I find it necessary to size the case to get bullet hold because I want all the bullet hold I can get. After sizing and seating a bullet I place the sized case into the chamber with the bullet seated short and then use a cleaning rod to push the bullet out of the case until is contact the lands. When the bullet contact the lands I stop pushing and then remove the case with the bullet.

After I remove the case with the bullet it becomes a transfer, I then place the transfer into the shell holder and raise the ram with the seating die installed but loose meaning I have the seating plug backed out and the die high enough to prevent crimping. After raising the ram I adjust the die to the case and then lower the seating plug to the bullet. After the adjustment of the die and seater stem my die is adjusted to 'ZERO' off the lands. If I choose to seat the bullet off the lands I use a height gage to lower the seating stem.

Again, I do not seat a bullet into the lands, I am the fan of the running start, I insist on the bullet jump.

F. Guffey

how do you make sure the case is seated tight against the chamber i guess keeping the headspace tight?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

There seems to be a lot of shooters trying to seat their bullets just off the lands because that is the Internet rage. I think its a waste of time for "normal" shooters especially with a hunting rifle.

Case in point, commercial loaders produce Match ammo that is very accurate in all different types of rifles with no way of setting the bullets just off the lands. If they can do it why not the reloader without buying all kinds of tools and spending tons of time and components chasing the ragged edge?

 

[Axis II]

I would like to make my ammo more accurate but i am also a little worried my color the bullet and chamber trick might be cutting it a little close. plus i really get a kick out of saying damn did i miss or did i hit the same hole and hurry up and run down range. (safely of course-im usually the only one there) and say hot damn i hit the same hole twice or 3-4-5 times. anything to keep my sanity and joy is worth a little extra time.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I would like to make my ammo more accurate but i am also a little worried my color the bullet and chamber trick might be cutting it a little close. plus i really get a kick out of saying damn did i miss or did i hit the same hole and hurry up and run down range. (safely of course-im usually the only one there) and say hot damn i hit the same hole twice or 3-4-5 times. anything to keep my sanity and joy is worth a little extra time.

I wasn't talking directly to you, it was an observation. There is nothing wrong with trying to craft the most accurate ammo you are capable of crafting but there comes a point of diminishing returns. The barrels on entry lever hunting rifles won't care if your bullet is .020" or .030" off the lands, really!

When shooting one round at the vitals of a deer the deer will be no deader if 5 rounds from the bench group @1" or .75" off a rest.

I know the thrill of shooting a group and thinking you missed the paper with one round onky to discover you actually put that round into the same hole as another. It doesn't usually happen with mil-surplus rifles no matter what you do to the ammo.

 

[Bart B.]

. As the bullet it self will give you a variation of several 1/1000ths.

So does case headspace on rounds head spacing on their shoulders. All case heads are not against the bolt face when the round's fired, a few thousandths off is normal.

 

[Bart B.]

Case in point, commercial loaders produce Match ammo that is very accurate in all different types of rifles with no way of setting the bullets just off the lands. If they can do it why not the reloader without buying all kinds of tools and spending tons of time and components chasing the ragged edge?

One of the best posts on reloading I've read. Ever.

 

[Varminterror]

I seat and firmly crimp a bullet very long, smoke it with a lighter, jam into the lands, and measure the marks. I use a base to ogive comparator to measure this, and record the distance, subtracting the jammed length and my desired jump as appropriate. In using this method, I know my actual dead length from bolt face to the ogive datum contact point against the leade. I do chase my lands in some of my rifles - just repeat the above method.

Another method I have used - using a Hornady Headspace Comparator and a bullet comparator and their bullet seating "gauge," I'll spindle the bullet into the lands, then measure the distances from base to shoulder datum and base to ogive datum. Subtracting these two distances gives me a comparator reference distance from the shoulder to the lands. Then using a properly sized case for the rifle, I replicate that comparator reference length from shoulder to lands, minus my desired jump (or plus my desired jam).

COAL and base to ogive length using a Hornady Modified Case and their gauge is 100% irrelevant. The base of the modified case when using their tool system is free floating in space, and may not actually correspond to your actual bolt face position. It works, but you do have to correct your COAL and base to ogive length against a properly sized case matching your actual chamber. I have generally found the Hornady gauges to be shorter than my actual chambers (which makes sense, as this would produce a safer load than an error on the long side), resulting in more bullet jump than I really want. By "zeroing" my numbers against a once fired reference case, I get actual COAL's and base-to-ogive lengths suited to my rifle's chamber. All it's really doing is measuring the difference in the dead-length positions of the shoulder and the ogive, which is still a valuable length to understand.

 

[Varminterror]

i am also a little worried my color the bullet and chamber trick might be cutting it a little close.

Your method gives you your maximum length, but if you want to add a little jump to your bullet to be sure you stay off of the lands, just subtract your desired jump from the COAL you determine in your current "colored bullet" method and seat to that COAL instead. In doing so, you can pick whatever jump you desire, whether it's 5-10thousandths for a match bullet or 30thousandths for a monometal bullet.

I do recommend scrapping the COAL as your control length. Instead, use a base-to-ogive length, as the bullet ogives tend to be much more consistent than bullet tips. Still not perfect, but better than tips.

 

[fguffey]

how do you make sure the case is seated tight against the chamber i guess keeping the headspace tight?

Start with a case that off sets the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. That is not possible when purchasing threaded cases from Hornady because they only sell one case length from the shoulder to the case head. If Hornady cases are used and the reloader wants to use the correct chamber length from the shoulder to the bolt face they have to compensate for the difference in length between the case and chamber.

F. Guffey

 

[Varminterror]

how do you make sure the case is seated tight against the chamber

You push on the case base, either by pushing onto the base of the case with your thumb, or pressing with the tube body of a "gauge" like the Hornady tool.

 

[grandpawj]

I'm dizzy, gotta come back to this again tomorrow.

 

[Reloadron]

I have been doing some reading and watching a few videos and im interested in a Hornady OAL Gauge and bullet comparator to try and make my ammo a little more accurate. right now i am making a dummy round and coloring the bullet with a sharpie and seating little by little until it chambers smoothly and no marks on the bullet. do you guys use this Hornady tool and if so any thoughts on it helping shrink my groups?

any information is greatly appreciated.

Lump me in with the save your money group. I have one around here somewhere that was given to me years ago and I never use it. Everyone has made the reasoning why they are not that great pretty apparent. Here is what I do and for the most part I just seat for an OAL right from the manual. That said when the mood strikes I only worry about this with two bolt guns, a .223 Remington and a .308 Winchester. I fire a few cartridges in each rifle. My spent cases are reasonably what my chambers are. I set each case back about 0.002" making sure they chamber in their respective rifles. Then I drill out the primer pockets, as seen below:

I get a few of the bullets I plan to use and gently, very gently use my chamber and bolt to begin to seat the bullet, slowly closing the bolt. If one wants to go through the added effort they can strip the bolt of extractor and ejector. Open the bolt and use a cleaning rod from the bore to gently and slowly remove the cartridge, or if the bolt was left intact just slowly open the bolt and extract the cartridge. Measure the cartridge C.O.A.L. Typically I will run this five times and get an average. Then when seating I start .010 to .015 from where I was. The bullets are removed by using a cleaning rod through the oversize flash holes.

Actually one of my better shooting bolt guns in .308 Winchester has a throat which I would swear runs halfway to the muzzle and that rifle shoots great just using the load data C.O.A.L. When I was watching the bench rest guys and playing around with 6mm PPC I watched guys start a bullet in a charged round and literally use th bolt and chamber to seat their bullets. They shot with their bullets right on the lands. Personally my view is for me moving seating depth around never made much difference and if you are that concerned you may as well invest in a good decent concentricity gauge. One thing leading to another.....

Ron