9MMare
Member
Didja figure out the solutions?
Obama's kids have armed guards at their school
- Thread starter Grassman
- Start date
- Status
Didja figure out the solutions?
SharpsDressedMan
member
Can an armed guard respond and thwart all criminal assualts in a classroom? No, but let's not overlook the mere presence of an armed officer is a DETERRENT all by itself. Many armed assaults ARE deterred by the known presence of armed resistance. How many gunstores get robbed? Can a guy run in and shoot a few clerks first? Maybe, but he knows they are not sheep for the slaughter...........
9MMare
Member
Agreed. But we've addressed that.
Many shootings take place even with the armed guards....Littleton, VT, there was a guard in Newtown, not sure if armed.
Banks get robbed all the time with armed guards AND in many states they arent gun-free zones either.
So plenty do occur anyway. THese people plan and plan...they are sick and they LIVE thru the planning phase, because they know they'll die one way or another. Many hope to. Give them more obstacles, they'll plan around them.
So yes, in some cases deterrants...but in plenty...not so much.
Arm all the people you want. Just dont ask me to pay for it. I dont see a reasonable basis as a non-parent. No one has yet to tell my why it is unreasonable for parents & schools to look to the private sector to provide more?
76shuvlinoff
Member
Here we are debating the true affect of armed guards in schools but I read somewhere today, maybe even this very thread I'm not going looking for it now, that schools in Israel are quite successful in avoiding mass school killings since they instituted this voluntary approach in 1974.
True or not?
True or not?
Yes, very true. The Ma'alot massacre in 1974, the Israeli's put VOLUNTEER armed personnel in all of the schools. They have not had a further episode. They allow teachers to carry concealed weapons.
That is the solution since the root cause of the problem comes back to the gun free zones that they set up a few decades back. Utah already has armed teachers through their CCW permit process. Any CCW permit holder can carry on all public schools and colleges. In addition, private schools or places of business that prohibit weapons do not carry the force of law. They can only ask you to leave if someone notices your weapon.
The last mass shooting in Utah was stopped by an off duty LEO who exchanged gun fire and cornered the creep. SWAT came and shot him. 5 did die, but it would have been much more without an armed person who confronted him.
That is the solution since the root cause of the problem comes back to the gun free zones that they set up a few decades back. Utah already has armed teachers through their CCW permit process. Any CCW permit holder can carry on all public schools and colleges. In addition, private schools or places of business that prohibit weapons do not carry the force of law. They can only ask you to leave if someone notices your weapon.
The last mass shooting in Utah was stopped by an off duty LEO who exchanged gun fire and cornered the creep. SWAT came and shot him. 5 did die, but it would have been much more without an armed person who confronted him.
Bobson
Member
Armed guards in all schools is part of a solution. The elimination of all gun free zones is another part of a solution. Increased mental health care is part of a solution. Countless other parts of solutions exist, many of which I'm sure we're yet to consider. However, without the only real solution, the best solution we come up with will always be completely and utterly lacking, in every area except failure.
I don't have a problem at all if the local folks want to deploy part of the police force to high risk schools. They do that in my town in CA. However, a federal armed school guard program is very problematic.
If nobody posted this yet, here is a link to the original article:
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981828688
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474981828688
Columbine had armed guards.
Virginia Tech had armed guards.
Ft. Hood had armed guards.
I appreciate what you believe to be a double-standard, but it's not there: politicians' children are easily obtained targets for kidnapping. History has shown though, that having armed guards/security/secret service has not stopped anyone from killing when they want to.
There's solutions out there, but spending an estimated $5-6 Billion a year at 132,000 schools is not it.
Virginia Tech had armed guards.
Ft. Hood had armed guards.
I appreciate what you believe to be a double-standard, but it's not there: politicians' children are easily obtained targets for kidnapping. History has shown though, that having armed guards/security/secret service has not stopped anyone from killing when they want to.
There's solutions out there, but spending an estimated $5-6 Billion a year at 132,000 schools is not it.
You realize, of course, that saying columbine had armed guards is factually incorrect, right? Guards is plural. There was one, and he was on lunch break, amiright?
Very true. That was since the Ma'alot massacre. They have anonymous armed volunteers and teachers along with openly armed guards. They have not had any mass killings in their schools since 1974. There is a solution that is not politically correct in the US. Except in a few states, the US will only bury its head in the sand and take guns away from law abiding citizens.
One of other aspect, our strongest gun rights advocate today is probably Alan Gura. I got to know Victor Gura in the last year. He is the inventor of a wearable artificial kidney. He also spent time in the Israeli Defense Forces.
http://www.hksn.org/ISHD2009/faculty_Victor_GURA.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Gura
I didn't put the connection between the two until Victor stated, that is my son when we were talking about gun rights one day. We have much to thank the Israeli's for here in America through Alan Gura's efforts and the example of how they solved their mass school shootings way back in 1974.
We have already addressed this issue several times. Columbine's armed guard along with a traffic cop who was nearby confronted one of the creeps outside the school. When he went in the school, the two acted under the protocols of that day. They stayed outside and secured a perimeter and waited for SWAT to arrive 45 minutes later.
Today, we have Active Shooter protocols that they did use at Sandy Hook, but sadly, the carnage was over within a reported 3 minutes. One could argue that since the creep shot himself when he knew the police were approaching, the Active Shooter protocol did save lives even in Sandy Hook.
Ft Hood had NO armed guards in the medical building where the killings occurred. They had to call 911 just like anyone else. The military prohibits weapons on just about all of their bases except for MPs and a few other authorized folks.
The Virginia Tech shooting is no different. In the building where the shootings occurred, there were no armed guards. They had to call 911 as well. Cho further hindered entry by chaining all of the doors. Likewise, when he heard the cops coming near, he killed himself.
The only viable solution is to allow CCW on school campuses like Utah does today. Funny, we don't here of mass shootings in Utah very often. The last in Trolley Square was aborted by an off duty LEO who cornered the creep in one shop and SWAT killed him a few minutes later.
Last edited:
9MMare
Member
One can also argue that 25 dead people in 3 minutes shows active shooter protocol will NEVER prevent active shooters and high death tolls.
9MMare
Member
This example is also getting a bit ridiculous. There's no way to prove that's why there have been no mass shootings in UT.What about other states with none? WHat's the reason there?
Utah ALSO has a very high rate of Mormonism and close-knit families and rural students, and very few large urban areas. It has low population density.
Any and all of those things may contribute to their good fortune. And so can luck.
Not only that....how many students know their teachers could be carrying? I bet that is a message that alot of parents a) dont want to think about and b) dont want their kids to know so they wont be scared.
It's a very complex thing and you are oversimplifying it like it's THE ANSWER.
When your first line of defense is to call 911 and wait for the good guy with a gun to come from somewhere else and save you, immediately stopping violent attackers can be pretty difficult.
Dear 9MMARE,
Sorry, but I have never stated that is ALL that we should do. Read my numerous posts stating we should have Utah type CCW in schools where all legally acquired CCW permits are allowed on public schools.
The Active Shooter protocols are a response to the failure of Columbine and other mass killings.
Actually 9MMARE,
The Utah example is getting serious consideration by a lot of folks.
Utah has a very high rate of crime, gangs and suicides along with high divorce rates. The Amish also had such a society and that didn't prevent the mass shooting at one of their schools.
The Ma'alot shootings in Israel prompter concealed carry anonymously in Israeli schools coupled with armed guards.
I will simply agree to disagree that concealed carry in schools is not a very large part of the solution.
351 WINCHESTER
Member
Why would a school in DC need any armed security? I thought guns had been banned a long time ago in DC.
RockyMtnTactical
Member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2006
- Messages
- 3,539
And Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein can carry concealed in places most of us peasants cannot as well. Hypocrites.
Gun ownership in DC isn't entirely illegal
barnbwt
member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2011
- Messages
- 7,340
a) not wanting to think about something won't change a damn thing
b) if we don't mind kids being scared of cops or TSA, why then trained teachers with guns?
"The simplest solution is usually the correct one" -Ockham's Razor
"Complicated solutions are always bad answers" -My Razor
Let's see; eliminating a Gun Free Zones law that's been shown to have accomplished nothing, or a massively expensive and invasive mental health database/program, or a massively expensive and invasive gun database/program
I'd say THE ANSWER is quite clear for those who actually want one.
Dissapointingly, THE ANSWER is that kids are vulnerable, and cannot defend themselves. Very anti-climatic, I know. The strong will always seek to prey upon the weak (for profit in crime, for pleasure in lunacy). The only question is whether we should defend them actively (guard them) or passively (massive pastiche of laws, protections, and prohibiitions).
No matter how massive and formidable a fortress, if left unguarded, it will be penetrated, and the consequences will be massive. If an opponent is resigned to using arms of limited power (i.e. concealable and portable weaponry), it makes no sense to build the bullet-proof walls even thicker. The stronger the defenses, the fewer sentries are needed; but the number can never fall below two (in case one guy croaks).
We all know we feel the deaths of children in these incidents much more strongly than those of adults. This is because we are instinctively attuned to the frailty of the weakest among us, and strive to prevent their loss at all costs. This is founded in the assumption that adults are capable of defending themselves, that their lives are their own responsibility, and therefore we personally do not bear as much of the burden for their deaths. When in reality, the adults at Sandy Hook were just as helpless as the children they sought to defend with their lives. We all instinctively know that those adults would have been able to fight back in a just world. And if we are brave enough to examine them objectively, we will see the laws preventing them from doing so in the name of safety run counter to Human Nature.
TCB
*hey, I finally found an "emotionally based" argument for expanded gun-carry. Hurray.
And yet their use in schools entirely is. Why would school security need guns, indeed?
Last edited:
Wow, reference please. Who states that eliminating gun free zones accomplishes nothing. That is news to me. It worked in Israel and other places for nearly 40 years. Once again, that is not a statement I can agree with. Please list your sources of information for that statement. I believe it is factually incorrect.
I think he is saying that the "gun free" zones accomplish nothing (good)
Fair enough, perhaps that is the way he meant to state it. The Gun Free Zone law accomplishes nothing.
Truly, that is the root cause problem and the Utah solution is a great start and perhaps in low risk areas, all that is needed.
9MMare
Member
I never said that CC wasnt part of the solution. And everyone is considering CC in schools, Utah notwithstanding (as it does not reflect a very common demographic for the rest of the country, as I pointed out).
I said that your example of Utah is not indicative of the norm...and it does NOT have a crime rate, gangs, suicides as high as MANY other states. Who knows about divorce...you'd have to be a sad woman to get involved in multiple marriage to begin with.
And no one is even arguing against giving teachers/staff the option to CC. However once parents learn of it....there will be push back from anti-gun parents.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
