"Obliged to search"?

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hammer4nc

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http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/....html?id=9076aff2-cdea-4445-8149-cfe0a59f216c

Couple plan to sue RCMP over 911 reaction

Joanna Habdank, North Shore News
Published: Wednesday, November 22, 2006

NORTH VANCOUVER - A North Vancouver couple has complained to District of North Vancouver council and said they will sue the North Vancouver RCMP after officers responded to their hang-up 911 call by breaking down their door, making a forceful arrest and jailing them overnight when the couple refused to allow a house-search.

The RCMP said, however, that in this case, federal policy commands a home-check, designed to ensure public safety.

North Vancouver resident Marget Lieder said that in the early evening of Oct. 25 she was having wine with her partner and a guest when she misdialed the emergency number, meaning to call 411 instead. After promptly hanging up, the police contacted her, saying two officers were dispatched and warned her her home would be searched to confirm she wasn't in danger.

"I don't want my privacy to be invaded just because I misdial a number," she said. Once the officers arrived, she only spoke to them on her porch, refusing entrance. "They didn't have a search warrant and they didn't have anything to do in my house."

She insisted she had nothing to hide and there was no cause for distress. Three more officers arrived shortly after, broke down the door and arrested Lieder and her partner, Larry Pierce, for obstruction of justice, she said.

"I was sitting on the couch. They stuck a Taser in my face, threatening me with 50,000 volts," said Pierce, a well-known lawyer. "They threw me on the floor, twisted my left arm. A police officer stuck his knee into my ribs and jumped on me." Later he found out that his two ribs were cracked, recalled Pierce. The couple said the officers began taping them right away even though their rights weren't read until they were in the car. Once in jail, Pierce remembered he was interrogated for over an hour.

North Vancouver RCMP Const. John MacAdam said police are obliged to search the premises after a hang-up 911 call. Pierce maintained his rights were violated and he will go ahead with a lawsuit.
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Comment: Welcome to the future. How can we avoid mindless enforcement of poorly designed ordinances? Install a Youtube hookup in every home? I have a feeling that million dollar civil lawsuits ain't gonna cut it. Please try to keep your discussion polite; let's not have this thread locked. Thanks in advance!:)
 
Golly, so much for "Sgt. Preston of the Yukon" and other mountie icons of the past! I know Canada isn't the US, but they do share our common English legal heritage of warrants for search and "every Englishmen's home is his castle."

I will always remember the friendly treatment I get from Canadian border cops. Two weeks after 9/11, myself and three buddies decided to go to Montreal for an Expos game and tourist fun. Leaving the US, the American border people were mean and rude. We were actually upbraded for leaving the country in a time of a terrorist alert! The Canadian border guy was friendly and cheerful and wished us a good time in Montreal. I guess there are idiots on both sides of the border
 
Dunno...cops get a 911 hangup, there could be any number of bad things happening. If a guy has a knife to your wife's throat and tells you to make the cops go away, you're gonna do it.
Two sides to this story...

Biker
 
So if someone dials 911, beacause say they're victims of a home invasion, and the cops show up, if the bad guys pose as the residents, they should go, "oh, okay, we'll be on our way then..." then get sued by the residents for not doing something...

911 hang-up is just that... soemone dials 911 and hangs up, under duress perhaps? if you misdial 911 trying 411(look at the key placement on the phone anyhow), say "oops, sorry, I misdialed" and that will be it most likely...

near where I live a sheriff's deputy was fired for not responding to a call of a woman being held against her will.... he went to the house, made contact with the male resident, and saw the woman, supposedly being held, who said nothing...

I think some people don't like LE and will find fault regardless.... the cops can search under the exigent clause in regards to not having a search warrant (acting under the reasonable belief that someone may be in danger, i.e. from the 911 hang-up)

i.e.
...and as his wife was being raped repeatedly in the back room, Mr. Schmuckitelli, under duress from the home-invader in the closet with a gun refused to allow the police entry. The recent ruling by the courts said that residents can deny warrantless searches to the police, so the officers left. "I think its a travesty what happened to my client" Lawyer J. Cochran said in a statment to the press regarding his clients, the Schmuckitelli's. "The police have a duty to protect us, and they ignored a 911 hang-up, causing severe and undue harm to my clients. (We will be) seeking damages as such."

Bad police, come into house with no warrant!!!
or
Bad police, let family get terrorized by bad guys!!!
I think I'd prefer the first...
 
I gotta agree with biker. All the police know is that a call to an emergency response unit was placed and then cut off.

A man breaks down your door. You hurriedly grab the phone and dial 911. He runs up to you and forces you to hang up. Then they call back and he's standing right there with a knife or gun. You can't just say "oh yes that was me calling. I just wanted to say that there is a man here with a weapon". The BG is obviously going to tell you to tell 911 that everything is fine.

Perhaps breaking down the door is the wrong first response. But if they knocked and got no response, knocking down the door is probably the right course of action. Now arresting them is NOT right. They did not break any laws. I can understand them being handcuffed, but after the police determine everything is fine, they should apologize and leave. Not hold them for "obstructing justice".


A broken door and hurt feelings is a lot better than a family getting killed when the police were only footsteps away and were turned away.
 
How do you accidentally dial 911 instead of 411? The keypad of the phones I have used locate the 4 and the 9 key on opposite sides of the phone, and in different rows. Perhaps the wine that was beng imbibed had something to do with misdialing, and with the subsequent conversation with the police.

I could understand an exposed keypad type cell phone with one touch dialing calling 911 (it happened to me when I leaned against something, and the 9 key was unintentionally pressed long enough to initiate the 911 call); that did not result in any forced entry or arrest.

This incident sounds as though it was a set up, with the purpose of triggering a police entry and search against the expressed will of the occupants, so they would have an opportunity to file a lawsuit against the government.
 
I am puzzled by some of the responses that have been submitted in this thread, advocating the police to do warrantless forced entry into someones home due to a 911 hangup. In other threads, the reaction to No-Knock-Warrant forced entries has been for home owners to shoot whoever forces their way in, because it is difficult to determine if the people breaking in are really cops, or just bad guys claiming to be police. There seems to be some inconsistency in the way people on the forum react to news of homes being violently entered by police forces.

A case in point is the 92 year old woman that shot three plain clothes police officers before being killed by the police that were serving a warrant for a drug investigation. Most responses posted were of the variety claiming the police murdered a poor defenseless woman, or praising her for shooting three officers before she was gunned down. Now we have the opposite reaction, saying the police were justified in breaking down the door, after having been refused entry without a warrant due to a 911 hangup.

Children or pets playing with a phone could cause a 911 call to be initiated, while the owner was asleep, in the shower, or otherwise occupied and not answering the doorbell or a knocking fist. A 911 hangup should not be probable cause for a warrantless forced entry, without some other evidence of an emergency at the originating address. Refusal to allow entry and search by the resident, should not be the basis of a reasonable suspicion search of the premises.

The police have no way of knowing whether the voice on the phone belongs to the resident or an invader, so a call back for a 911 hangup is useless. Sending a patrol unit to do a visual check, and speaking to an occupant, is the best that can be expected; rousting the occupants and searching the residence is uncalled for without obvious visual or audible clues that something bad is occuring.
 
Well I didn't post in the thread about the old woman. But I think she was totally in the wrong.

But it is a sad fact that here on THR, you will always have a handful(or more) of people that will always take the opposite side of the Police. Some people on here would defend a gangbanger before a police officer. There are threads that routinely advocate illegal activity, and demean the very people who volunteered to stand between us and those that would do us harm. And that's a shame.
 
The appropriate response to a 911 hangup is to call back.

My cellphone came unlocked in my pocket, and dialed 911. They listened to the boring conversation I was having with a clerk for a minute or so, and called me back to confirm I wasn't tied up in someone's trunk.

End of story, as it should be.
 
How do you accidentally dial 911 instead of 411?
Click to expand...
Dialing by route instead of paying attention will do that sometimes. For example, earlier this week I ment to call my workplace while working on an issue, but instead dailed my mother's phone number.

The Mrs. Lieder should apologize to the police for fuss her inattentiveness caused. The police should apologize for their thugish behavior once at the Lieder home, pay to repair the door they broke and any medical bills that resulted from their actions. The cops who threatened the use of a tazer should be written up for their actions. I concur with One of Many's views on this warrantless searches from an erroneous 911 call.
 
I've never commented on the Atlanta incident... They were serving a warrant on a house where drugs had been sold... bad children may have bad grandmas.... I don't know...

I always try to err towards common sense... I generally err to the side of the police, because in my past experiences, they mostly tend to act properly... I say mostly... Just like responsible gun owners have to live with the stigmas placed by irresponsible gun users, cops always deal with the problem of being lumped with bad apples...

Millions of people have contacts with police everyday and walk away better informed... or lighter in the pocketbook at times... perhaps safer for it, occasionally arrested, or what have you... It is a hard job, where doing something in good faith can get you fired, sued, killed, etc...

.....exigent circumstances involve those in which a prudent and reasonable person (officer that is) has reasonable suspicion that life may be in danger... So when they show up at the door, they have one opportunity to get it right... If I were them I'd rather kick in a door and live with finding nothing than walk away and get a call four hours later that 4 people were found bound and executed at the same house...
 
....exigent circumstances involve those in which a prudent and reasonable person (officer that is) has reasonable suspicion that life may be in danger... So when they show up at the door, they have one opportunity to get it right... If I were them I'd rather kick in a door and live with finding nothing than walk away and get a call four hours later that 4 people were found bound and executed at the same house...




Didn't the police call back? Was there screaming in the background or did the person answer that they had misdialed thier phone? what act or evidence would have given the conclusion"exigent circumstances involve those in which a prudent and reasonable person (officer that is) has reasonable suspicion that life may be in danger" ? once inside the house , did a man sitting on a couch pose a threat? what justice was obstructed?

I think what happened was a little overboard . But , we don't have all the facts so hard to say . Things like , how long did the police try to gain entry before kicking the door in ? Did anyone attempt to look in through the windows to see if anything was goin on inside? Etc Etc .
 
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Here we respond to all 911 hangups. If the person says they are fine when the telecommunicator calls back, we still respond. Cell phones are somewhat different because even with the vaunted gps function we often can't locate them.

I have responded to 911 hangups where on call back, the telecommunicator was told everything was ok, to find a domestic violence situation when I arrived. I have responded to pleny of 911 hangups where nothing was wrong.

Never insisted on coming in to see for myself unless something was obvously wrong.

One time I resonded to a 911 call of a child being beaten. The call came from the house across the street. Arrived, parked down the block walked up to the house listening for signs of trouble. All was quiet. Suddenly a boy about nine ran over to me from the house the call was made from. It seems he had been told there was a spanking coming if he didn't come in after he got off the school bus and do his homework before he headed out to play. I explained to his father that we had to respond to every call, and left the father to deal with the boy. I explained to the boy that 911 was for emergencies only and that he might get a spanking for disobeying the rules was not a 911 emergency unless he was going to be injured. He told me he was never hurt, just didn't want to be spanked. I suggested that obeying the rules which didn't seem unreasonable might be the way to avoid that and left.

Jeff
 
In spite of my belief that the police have too much power....

A house sweep by the police due to a 911 hangup is a necessity.
 
In fact, up here it is mandated. Can you imagine the press if the women was killed after placing this call? This suit will go nowhere. Nor should it.

Domistic violence is common up here as I suspect it is down your way. The RCMP are a well trained, well respected police force and thier members are part of our communities. Whether you like it or not our police forces are charged with the responsibility of protecting us from harm and often times it comes from our spouses as well as from strangers. Good on them for doing their duty. The lady in question ought to be thankful they did what they did.

Take Care

Bob
 
What a coincidence

What a coincidence there happens to be a "well known lawyer" there when they decide to test the 911 system and then refuse entrance to the cops. The cops seemed to be doing ok until they started arresting the people they would also have to be describing as the purported victims. Were those cops that crazy or were they provoked? Even if they were provoked by the occupants of the home, they deserve to be sued for stupidity for falling for it.
 
I have responded to 911 hangups where on call back, the telecommunicator was told everything was ok, to find a domestic violence situation when I arrived. I have responded to pleny of 911 hangups where nothing was wrong.
Click to expand...

My middle son, now 13, called 911 back when he a kindergartener. Husband and I were in the living room, kids playing upstairs, when the phone rang. It was the 911 operator, calling to check on us because they'd just had a hang up call from our house.

Five kids in the house, and husband and I looked at each other and knew instantly which kid was the culprit. :p

When deputy arrived, husband and I met him on the porch & explained situation. Said we'd rather not do this again, so if he could (pretty please) give the lecture to the kid we'd appreciate it. Deputy said, "How many kids you got here?"

"Umm, five."

"Bring 'em all down, I'd like to talk to all of them. Sometimes this is contagious." (Heh, and a good way of checking that everyone is okay, I suspect.)

Out troop the kids. Deputy spots Middle Son, the redhead. "You're the one who called, aren't you?" Kid hangs head. Deputy gives pretty good talking-to, then invites kids to check out patrol car.

***

Two weeks later, same kid did same thing again, no husband around this time. Well, #%^&%!! (He must take after husband's side; I'm sure I was never that ornery.)

Asked why he did that, his response was, "I liked the guy who came out and wanted to talk to him again."

So much for the Officer Friendly model. ;)

pax

The fact that boys are allowed to exist at all is evidence of a remarkable Christian forbearance among men. -- Ambrose Bierce
 
A No-win Situation for the Police

The police can't possibly win in this one. If they had not searched and the people were murdered, then they are the bad-guys. If the police conduct a simple walk-through, they are invading. No way to win here. The kick-the-door in and arrest them though, well, I can not support that either. Like I said, no way to win.

Doc2005
 
The police can't possibly win in this one. If they had not searched and the people were murdered, then they are the bad-guys. If the police conduct a simple walk-through, they are invading. No way to win here. The kick-the-door in and arrest them though, well, I can not support that either. Like I said, no way to win.
Click to expand...

I disagree, Doc: the responding cops can use some judgement. Is that asking too much?

Some time back, I had a frantic call from #3 daugher: her oldest son (my brightest, and Geekiest Grandson) had run away at 0430 on a school day. Fairfax County cops responded quickly, found the boy complete with his wagonload of "camping" gear (think oreos and peanut butter crackers). Boy given a ride home; boy, parents & grandparents talked to calmly, professionally and compassionately. No abusive conditions detected, end of story.

That's perfect coppery in my opinion. I wrote the Chief of Police commending the responding officer.

TC
 
Like I said earlier, it's a judgement call. If you've awakened people at the house because heavy rains caused water to get in their phone lines (most are buried around here) and that caused the system to make a 911 call, there is no need to do anything more then apologize for waking them, explain that you are required to respond and leave. I've been to one 911 hangup that was made by a cat that laid down on top of a cordless phone left on the couch and hit the 911 panic button so many of those phones have on them.

We get a lot information from the call back the 911 telecommincator gave. "They said there was no problem but I heard shouting in the background", or "someone picked up the phone and then the line went dead" are good indicators that something is wrong at the residence.

Yes, jackbooted thug that I am, I have demanded and secured entrance when I felt something was wrong. I have also refused to leave until the person who made the call came to the door, stepped outside and talked to me in private.

You have to go with your gut. If the law in Canada requires them to walk through the house, I don't see what's to be gained by a lawsuit unless they want the law stricken from the books.

Jeff
 
Yes, jackbooted thug that I am, I have demanded and secured entrance when I felt something was wrong. I have also refused to leave until the person who made the call came to the door, stepped outside and talked to me in private.
Click to expand...
Spare me the pity party, Jeff: we're all adults here. I most assuredly agree with you that you have to exercise judgement, and sometimes go with your gut feelings.

I'll bet it's a pretty frustrating thing for most LEOs to have to respond to what are mostly BS 911 calls. I don't think I could be very patient with people who either deliberately (stupidly) or accidentally abuse the 911 system.

In a different venue, and a different life, I've responded to "MAYDAY" calls. I never had to even *consider* that the call might be bogus.

TC
 
No pity party here...just a lighthearted jab at a certain faction that resides here in L&Pee. ;)

I'd say 9/10s of the 911 hangups we respond to around here are false. I wouldn't support a law or policy that required me to physically check every home everytime one came in. From reading the article, it sounds to me like the RCMP officers had no choice in the matter. And it probably wasn't a very pleasant conversation for either party, if the ones like that I've participated in are any indication.

Jeff
 
Alcoholic beverages combined with an attitude problem is the most likely culprit here.
Click to expand...

<Low Road removed by Art>

The cops should have used better judgement.

OTOH, said cops may have showed up, had a discussion with the lady on the porch, and heared the prominent lawyer inside pontificating.
Liquored up, I can get pretty loud, as I imagine most do. Maybe the prudent thing to do was investigate.

Sure don't like the taser thing at any rate. "I had to come in to ensure your safety. Now sit still before I zap you again!"
 
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