Obsolete, Or Merely Forgotten?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dionysusigma

Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2003
Messages
3,671
Location
Okay City
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security... --

... In every stage of these oppressions we have petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury...

Emphasis mine.

For those that have forgotten, it's all from the Declaration of Independance (the reason we have the holiday called Theforthajoolaye with fireworks and barbecue).

What I'm wondering is if these words have any meaning anymore. The signing of this work is what started this country--but now, merely quoting it seems to be treason. Did I miss something? Was there some memo sent out that all documents written before 1900 are now null and void? Or did I miss something else entirely?

What happened? :confused:
 
Anyone know a place online where I can find the Declaration of Independence as well as the Bill of Rights unaltered?
I'd really like to read through it again.
 
provide new guards for their future security
Too bad it didn't read "provide new guards for their future FREEDOM" because security is the excuse used to deprive us of liberty. But I do see your point, our rights are alienated.

it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government
Sounds like they are speaking collectively. Good luck trying to organize that because you don't have that right either.
 
I've been trying for years to put that glorious, succinct argument into modern English. (I tried one early version on the folks on this board; it was both amusing and depressing to see how many thought the whole thing was too radical and libertarian, not realizing where the argument came from!) :D :uhoh: :banghead:

Here's the latest version:

We believe that certain truths are so obvious that they do not require an elaborate proof, and so obvious that it is ridiculous to attempt one. Among these truths is the obvious fact that all human beings are equally responsible for themselves, for their own consciences, behaviors, and actions. All human beings have some basic rights, just because they are human beings. Those basic rights include a right to live their own lives, to do whatever they wish as long as it doesn't interfere with the basic rights of others, and to make their own decisions about what will give them the happiest life.

The reason people agree to submit themselves to a government is to protect these basic and fundamental human rights. That's how governments are made.

Thus, a government does not get its power from force. The government is there not simply because it is able to force people to obey it, and not from any moral obligation of its citizens towards it. A government gets its power from the free, voluntary, and willing consent of ordinary people. The power of government comes from people who agree to be bound by it.

Because the government gets its power from willing agreement, and because the purpose of that agreement is to protect basic human rights, it follows that whenever a government no longer protects those rights, citizens then have the right to either change that government or to destroy it. This is because they are the ones who agreed to make the government in the first place, and because the government is no longer doing what the people agreed the government would do.

More than that, if the government either does not or cannot protect basic human rights, the only moral course that a human being can take is to participate in changing or abolishing the existing government. People don't just have a right to change the government or get rid of it; they have a responsibility to do so.

When people change governments, or build a new government, they have the right to change to whatever form of government seems to them most likely to protect their basic rights, so the people can be both safe and happy under the new government.

But it isn't a good idea to change governments, or to get rid of the old government, unless the situation is very serious and long-lasting. You can tell, from looking at history, that most people aren't willing to do that anyway. They prefer to put up with all sorts of nonsense from the familiar old government, at least as long as they are able to cope with it, and only change governments when things have become really bad.

pax

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles Austin Beard
 
The problem has always been that we left the States free to abuse those rights. The quality of ones US citizenship depends upon where one lives.
 
when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security... --
Sure the words still have meaning. They are as applicable today as they were 229 years ago.

Whether or not the people of today have an equal measure of will and courage as those who signed the declaration is another matter entirely.

Personally - I doubt it.

More's the pity, for the future of mankind as a free animal is much in doubt.
 
Historically speaking, the Declaration of Independence was merely a propaganda document. The founding fathers were willing to accept much less from the Crown, it was written at their "extreme position" from which to begin barganing, not their actual desired position. What they really wanted was better rights as Englishmen.

Also, the Declaration has no force of law. It isn't the Constitution.

Incidentally, "pursuit of happiness", as English was used in the late 1700's, means the job that makes you happy. So you have the right to life, liberty and the job you want.

Every body has the right to revolt if they are unhappy, as long as they succeed.
 
You just don't understand, Dionysusigma - the federal government is now here to protect your "freedom" (didn't they tell you all about that in publik skool?) and so you don't need to worry about stuff like this anymore. If the government determines that our form of government needs to be changed, they will change it for you (just like they are doing in Iraq - isn't that wonderful?).

Since the government is taking care of your "freedom", you are now free to go to work and pay taxes and buy junk at Walmart with whatever you might have left. So please stop reading documents like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution because you are only confusing yourself and others with silly notions. Anything you need to know about those documents, the government will tell you and explain what it means to you (I mean, like - that's what the Soopream Corte is four, rite????).

:p
 
tanksoldier said:
Every body has the right to revolt if they are unhappy, as long as they succeed.

Every body has the right to revolt if they are unhappy, but they better not fail.
 
I would say it's absolutely true, but then so is this part:

all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

Or alternately:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?


(I'm always getting those two mixed up :p )

Basically -- despite the insane taxes, intrusive fed.gov, and all manner of petty abuses, we're essentially fat and happy these days. It takes a lot to get us riled up enough to pull out the rifles and start pulling a Bowman. I know I ain't there yet.

-K
 
People just don't get it.

By definition "they government", any government, can't support the Declaration of Independence... government can't guarantee the right to revolt against itself.

If you're unhappy but haven't revolted it means one of two things:

1. You aren't unhappy enough yet to revolt. If so, quite whining. Things must not be that bad.

2. You don't have the guts. If so, quit whining. The founding fathers put their lives and those of their families on the line. What are you doing?

Me? I'm a Soldier. I'm sworn to defend the Constitution. I'm also a student of history. Compared to the rest of the world, and most of the rest of US history, things are actually pretty good right now.
 
Besides, rifles are so 20th century. Modern rebels seem to favor explosives.

pax, OK is I turn your re-worded Declaration into a visual?
 
tanksoldier said:
People just don't get it.

By definition "they government", any government, can't support the Declaration of Independence... government can't guarantee the right to revolt against itself.
Incorrect.

The government of the United States, the oath of office of EVERY elected and appointed official, swears them to uphold and to defend the Constitution. And the Constitution gives us the right to revolt.

It isn't that "government" can't guarantee the right to revolt against itself. The problem is that the individual politicians who come to make up government can't be trusted with government.
 
Funny thing about the D of I. While our forefathers thought it okay to cast of the oppressive government of the British, the government they formed does not support being cast off and they made no provisions for it to be cast off should its citizens determine there is a need.

It is much easier to cast off a government that is thousands of miles away that has no real ability to control its colonies directly, as was the case in the 1700s. Imagine that as King, you get a report from the colonies that came directly to you that took 2 months to arrive. You decide you need to send in the military and so you take a couple of months to form a plan, select troops, outfit the troops and ships needed, and then send them overseas where tey arrive a couple of months later. By this time, the situation to which you are responding has changed by 6 months of time. It is hard to keep control that way and the colonists eventually cast of the distant monarchy.

The situation now is completely different than it was in the 1700s. Our government is in place geographically. If we attempt to cast off our government now, it would be considered a wholly illegal act and the in place government would be able to act on such an attempt with lightning speed compared to what was going on in the 1700s.

Many of you may recall from your history books that there was an attempted casting off of the government back in 1861 by a limited group of states. It did not turn out too well for those states and while things have recovered now, there is still a lot of resentment today over what went on.
 
Lee ~

Understood. The reason I've tried to re-word it is because no one lets the actual argument punch them in the guts. They read the Declaration as if it were vaguely-familiar poetry, not as the closely reasoned polemic that it is.

My goal is to someday manage to strip the argument back down to its bones, so that people easily grasp just how radical that document is.

pax

It is interesting to hear certain kinds of people insist that the citizen cannot fight the government. This would have been news to the men of Lexington and Concord, as well as the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan. -- Jeff Cooper
 
I'd be very interested to know what part of the Constitution gives citizens the explicit right of revolt. The Constitution provides a process for amendment, and even for holding an entirely new constitutional convention... both of which, being provided by law, are not revolts. A revolt is an uprising against lawful authority. If the law, in this case the Constitution, provided for action that might be considered a revolt and that action occured it COULDN'T be a revolt because it would still be in accordance with the law. It is, by definition, impossible to have a lawful revolt.

According to Wikipedia:

A rebellion is, in the most general sense, a refusal to accept authority. It may thus be seen as encompassing a range of behaviors from a mild flouting of social norms to a violent organized attempt to destroy established authority. It is often used to refer to armed resistance to an established government. Those who participate in rebellions are "rebels".


Hawkmoon said:
The government of the United States, the oath of office of EVERY elected and appointed official, swears them to uphold and to defend the Constitution. And the Constitution gives us the right to revolt.
 
Having lived in two other countries, those words have a lot of meaning. We're more free than anywhere I can think of - and not even close to the text you put in bold.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top