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"offensive spirit of the bayonet"

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greyhound

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So some wag I was talking to yesterday had this to opine:

Basically, ever since the firearm became a weapon of war, generals have been highly keen on the "agressive offensive spirit of the bayonet", in that they wanted hard charging soldiers ready to close with the enemy and run them through.

In reality, soldiers HATED bayonets and preferred to keep low in their hole/trench, and rise up once in a while to quickly pot at the enemy.

Anyone ever heard this? Makes sense to me...
 
A lot of men die charging the other side! Look at the civil war. I myself don't get it and would rather shoot from behind a tree or nice trench. But then again I read somewhere thats why we have stand off weapons like Firearms! Who wants to be stabbed or slashed to death from a man on a horse. But what do I know, I'm a chicken **** at hart :(
 
The bayonet is one of those oddities in war that just won't go away, like guns on fighter aircraft.

We went into the Vietnam experience building fighters without guns Missiles would do the job the experts said. What we soon found out was that air combat still could become close and personal, and inside the minimum range for the Sidewinder and Sparrow missiles.

Hiding behind trees and in your hole sounds like a good idea in practice, but there are times when the enemy ends up behind the same tree or in the same hole and for some reason your rifle won't fire or needs to be reloaded. The Chinese in Korea ('50-'53) practiced close and personal warfare all the time. They found out from hard experience with our artillery and air power that they had to infiltrate and get into the holes and trenches with our soldiers. Likewise the North Vietnamese soldier in the SEA experience.

Pilgrim
 
Don't forget the origins of the bayonet. Back in the early days of black-powder muzzle-loading firearms, armies soon found that a musketeer would be effectively disarmed and helpless once he'd fired his weapon, as reloading took so long. They put pikemen in amongst the musketeers, so that if (say) a cavalry charge was coming in, the musketeers could fire a volley, and then reload while the pikemen held off the rampant horsemen. Pretty soon, some bright spark figured out that if you could mount something like a pike head on a musket, the musketeers could fire a volley, and then hold off the cavalry themselves!

This also carried over into infantry charges. If a volley was fired, the infantrymen were effectively disarmed until they could reload. If they had bayonets, they could fire a volley and then charge the enemy while he was (hopefully) still in disarray as a result of the volley.

This relic of the blackpowder era carried over into modern magazine rifles as well. Today, the bayonet is seldom used in actual combat, but it remains with us. The funny thing is, on many rifles, if you mount the bayonet, it changes the point of impact of the rounds you fire. At short ranges, this isn't a huge problem, but at medium to long range, it can really hurt accuracy.
 
The SPIRIT of the bayonet implies aggressiveness, closing with and destroying the enemy. That attitude is the crux of the warrior -- and it applies regardless of the weapon or system.

Further -- for those who might suggest the bayonet is archaic and will never again be employed in warfare -- I would respectfully remind you that during November ’65 in the Ia Drang valley, the First Battalion, Seven Cavalry (LtGen, then LtCol, Hal Moore commanding) employed a fixed bayonet charge on the final day of the battle for LZ X-Ray to overwhelm the PAVN.
 
Gunman:
Short answer,based on weapons I have personal knowledge of: having anything in contact with the barrel changes the harmonics of the barrel, how it vibrates when fired, thus changing the impact. Also, with light barrels/heavy to moderate weight bayonets ( think M16a1) the barrel could actually bend slightly with the added weight. Both of these are reasons that the most accurate rifles are usually "Free-Floated" so nothing comes in contact with the barrel.

All:
in my limited experience (22 years as a US paratrooper) we (Troops) loved the bayonet, and had them fixed anytime we thought there was a possibility of close contact with the enemy. Its effect was probably mostly psychological, it made us feel bad-a#@ed, and ,we hoped, made our opponents more likely to run/surrender/die. No-one wants to stick around when a howling mob of post-adolescents are racing at them with a chunk of steel ready to stick in their guts.:what:
 
I can tell you from foolin' around at the range that fixing bayonets changes the point of impact of the M1, the M1A, an AR15 clone, and a Mossberg 590. I had a cut down Korean M1 bayonet, and a standard M14 bayonet.

In most cases adding them caused the point of impact to rise. At 50 yards it was about three inches with the M1 and the accurized M1A. The accurized AR was affected, but less so than the other rifles. I shot so poorly at 100 the day I tried this that it was hard to tell what changes the bayo made and what came from operator ineptititude.

The 590 was interesting. It usually shoots about 12 inches low at 100 yards. (I haven't gotten up the guts to file on the front sight yet and am out of adjustment on the peep sight.) With an M16 bayonet it shot about five inches high at 50 and shot an inch or so high at 100.

Since ammo changes point of impact too, I can't guarantee this will follow with your guns. I used Black Hills reloaded .223, one ounce slugs, and my .30-06 and .308 reloads with 147 grain bullets. The '06 loads were moving around 2600 fps and the .308s were getting 2550 from the M1A.

Accuracy seemed unchanged by adding the bayonet.

My theory is that the extra metal hung on the barrel changes the barrel whip around. Sort of like a BOSS device, minus the ports and adjustments. :cool:
 
"Basically, ever since the firearm became a weapon of war, generals have been highly keen on the "agressive offensive spirit of the bayonet", in that they wanted hard charging soldiers ready to close with the enemy and run them through."

Pretty much because before the Firearm, they used spears and swords... and did just that. For the most part, muskets were still just that... but could fire a ball. Bayonets have been used in all wars with guns through Vietnam.

Agressive, Offensive Sprit? Damnstraight. That's how soldiers win wars. I wouldn't want my Army to be without it.
 
I'll bet that when you NEED a bayonet, you'll be glad to have it.

It things have gone so badly that the need is present is a sure sign that you shoulda switched to plan "C".
 
There's one out there that claimed to actually improve accuracy on the M-16 - the Bayoknife. Basically, it was to be screwed onto the flash suppressor / over the barrel using a special assembly. Pretty cool; it won most innovative design last year at the BLADE show, but nothing ever became of it.
 
In Infantry Basic in the Sixth Division at Fort Ord, Monterey, California we were taught to use the bayonet with the M1 rifle. Having been raised as a pacifist by my parents, I had difficulty with the instruction. I would feign "laryngitis" when the cadreman would shout, "I CAN'T HEAR YOU TROOPER!" After some time I was able to shout the words, "TO KILL" and "THE QUICK" when the instructor would ask the questions about bayonet fighting.

When I was assigned to Germany and issued a M1 rifle and even later a M-2 carbine, I made sure that my bayonet was in working order. When I was in the USAF and issued a M-1 carbine we were not issued a bayonet. I asked if we had any and received laughter as an answer.

When I rejoined the army and was sent to Korea I found myself issued a M-14 rifle w/bayonet. We all carried our rifles and LBE gear on the truck to our mountain top Hawk Missile site every day. Our instructions were that if we went to war with NK we would become replacement rifleman after firing our missiles at enemy aircraft.

Our compound was down the mountain and on a flattened area still at some elevation. The local "slicky boys", as thieves were called in Korea were very adept at their trade and our eight foot tall fences with a dog run in between and barbed wire and concertina wire was just a slight challenge to them. Our interior guard posts were manned by soldiers carrying only a .45 caliber pistol and 7 rounds of 230 ball ammo. There was also a KATUSA with his canine.

After the officer's quarters were hit one night and all the officers lost wallets, watches, and electric razors, the captain was furious. He swore that this would not happen again but it did, this time his personal stereo was taken. I decided that if no one else would address the problem I would do it.

I obtained a copy of FM-19-? (Physical Security Manual) and wrote up a treatise on security for our camp. I covered various aspects that needed addressed in our organization and then went into a one page description of the need for a better firearm for interior guard duty. If the M-14 was too much, the .45 was too little. My compromise was the 12 gauge shotgun with a M-1917 bayonet and 00 buckshot. I turned in the paper to the first sgt. with a request that he pass it on to the captain.

About four weeks later as I was returning my rifle to the arms room, after our truck came down from the missile site, the armorer asked me to stay by for a minute since he needed my help on something. When the others were gone the armorer opened a wooden packing crate and there they were, the most beautiful sight! There were 6 of the Winchester 12 gauge riot shotguns with the opon cooling hand guards and bayonet mounts. The bayonets and sheaths were there also.

The armorer said that he didnt know quite how to set them up and asked my advice.( I was know to be a firearms afficianado since I had a pistol and rifle/shotgun combo in the arms room) He was not too kappy to see them and wondered aloud about who had thought up such a scheme. I just kept quiet and grinned inwardly.

Later, as soon as they were put to work with the bayonet fixed and fully loaded with 00 buck, the troops were saying how they would like to get hold of whoever it was that brought these shotguns into their lives. They were not liked because they were heavy and required the bayonet to be fixed while on patrol and were not as easy to carry as the holstered .45 pistol.

The bottom line? We were never bothered by "slicky boys" again as long as I was there. That was the purpose anyway. The thieves would walk down the road outside or camp and scowl at the guard walking post with the shotgun and bayonet.

Later enroute to Oakland by train from Fort Riley, Kansas we were asked by the first sgt. if anyone wanted to be ready to repel boarders by the Berkeley mob as we pulled into the Oakland Army Base. The whole aisle outside the compartments filled up with soldiers with rifles and bayonets. The one thing I remember doing with my bayonet in RVN was to cut a cobra in half so we could see what it had for lunch. The guy that found the cobra in his bunker, climbed back down the ladder and stabbed it with his bayonet that was mounted on his M-14.

:)
 
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Best dang bayonet quote around

I beg leave to remind the {Cavalry} Board that very few people have ever been killed with the bayonet or sabre, but the fear of having their guts explored with cold steel in the hands of battle maddened men has won many a fight.
- General George S. Patton, Jr.
 
quote:
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I beg leave to remind the {Cavalry} Board that very few people have ever been killed with the bayonet or sabre, but the fear of having their guts explored with cold steel in the hands of battle maddened men has won many a fight.
- General George S. Patton, Jr.

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General Patton died before the Korean war started so he couldn't have known what happened there.

A part of the 7th Inf. Division, holding a hill, ran very low or out of ammo and had to hold that hill with bayonets until help arrived.....I believe it was something like 24 hours. The 7th Inf. Division has been known as the "Bayonet Division" from that day to present.
 
I think the Mission of the Marine Rifle Squad sums up the reason that we still have bayonets:

To locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and manuever; And to repel the enemies attack by fire and close combat

It is there in case we ever need it. Who knows what the rigors of war will throw at us? Maybe in the future, instead of staring in disgust at a failed weapon, someone will think to fix bayonets and make the best out of a bad ambush.

Also was told this story by one of my commanders. During the Hatian refugee riots, the bayonetting of the mob leader by a Marine, effectivly quelled the mob's bloodlust.
 
What Phil Ca says.....

"...if anyone wanted to be ready to repel boarders by the Berkeley mob as we pulled into the Oakland Army Base."
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While at Ft. Bragg in 1968, my artillery unit was trained in 'riot control' for possible deployment at the Democratic convention in Chicago and the Washington riots of that year.

The bayonet is a very effective tool against mobs of aggressive protestors, especially if using disciplined troops. When "BACK" was shouted with accompanying thrust of bayonet in unison, almost everyone was happy to retreat.:D
 
In '69 in Northern I Corps, my company sprang an ambush, and chased the survivors into a village. When I came up, the enemy was on the edge of the village, and my troops were on the other side of a vegetable garden. I ordered the Forward Observer to cut off the illumination, and had the platoon leader have his troops fix bayonets.

The rattle-click as the flares were dying was something to hear -- and when I got up, I had no doubt every man was getting up behind me -- and they did.

The act of fixing a bayonet commits a man to do what comes next.

(There was, of course, no bayonet fight -- we chased them out the other side, and shot a couple in the process.)
 
While the bayonet was used in it's traditional role of pigsticking one's opponent (most of the time, the other dude ran at the sight of cold steel) during the Civil War, most soldiers who died in combat were killed by artillery or small arms. While bayonets account for very few of the combat deaths back in the Civil War, it was extremely useful as a candlestick holder, foraging (pig-sticking or carrying hams, bread, etc.), entrenching (very useful), or cooking (roast your meat on it or cook your dough).
 
What's the spirit of the bayonet?

TO KILL WITHOUT MERCY!

That's the way it was when I was a humpin' a ruck.
 
A bayonet is really useless in modern warfare, but still GREAT for riot control!

Even a VERY agitated mob will turn tail at first sight of cold steel attached on the business end of a Mossberg 590. :evil:
 
Phil Ca, it ain't Korea, and I couldn't afford a M97 or M12 w/1917 bayonet...

But this particular 870 saved my wife's and my bacon a couple times in Citrus Heights, CA about 6 years ago:

870trenchsmall.gif

Some things never change, do they? Crack dealers weren't particularly keen on having their innards explored with cold steel, either. (Nevermind 8 rounds of 3" magnum 000 buckshot)
 
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