Oh, Controversy

[ZWCoffindaffer]

Nothing starts a good argument like a conversation on rifle or handgun caliber. Seriously though, I'm wanting to get the fiance a carry gun. Shes shot guns before and does very well with anything Ive put in her hand from a 7mm Rem Mag to my subcompact .45 ACP. However I dont want her to have to lug around too big of a gun all day. What do you guys think about carrying a .380? Is it enough gun for self-defense(please save the "its shot placement that matters" quote)? I'm purely talking stopping power and penetration in a real situation, should it ever arrise(hopefully not). On a side note, anyone shot a Ruger LCP .380? LGS has them on sale for $199, which seems like a good deal, even for a pocket gun.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

.380 is fine for carry. I sometimes carry my .380 Makarov and when I do I carry FMJ since usually .380 isn't traveling fast enough to reliably expand a JHP. I'd recommend reading this: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=564531

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

I didnt read the whole thing, but that was a good thread. Rest assured, she is going with to pick it out herself. I just wanted to be able to help and wasnt sure about the .380. Good idea on the FMJ vs JHP though!!

 

[GoldieMI]

I actually carry a 380 as my EDC. a P238 Equinox with Corbon Powerball 90s
I don't feel like I'm outgunned, it's small, light, easily carried, and I grab it easily no matter what I am wearing. Nemesis Pocket carry...jeans, shorts, dress pants, casual or business
I can put all 7 rounds into the X Ring at 25' after I practiced with it
real sights, clean trigger, and it goes boom when the trigger is pulled.

I have many other options including the 938 but it's the 238 that gets picked up 99% of the time.

my two cents

 

[Teachu2]

It is possible to go too small. She needs to shoot any candidate and see what works for her. My wife didn't care for the LCP or LC9, is OK with the Shield, and loves the M&P 9c. YMMV.

 

[pblanc]

I personally would not be comfortable with a .380 for carry largely due to the limited penetration, limited expansion issue. It seems that with the .380 case size you can either get adequate penetration or reasonable expansion but not both at the same time. So I agree ball ammo is probably the best choice.

I'm not suggesting that a non-expanding bullet can't kill. Pistols and revolvers chambered in .22 long rifle have killed plenty. But certainly, with a decent 9mm JHP you can have both expansion and penetration. And with all of the subcompact 9mm auto loaders that are now available I just can't see going with a .380 auto (so as to reduce the case length by 2mm) if you are buying a new pistol.

Just my 2 cents. I know plenty of people who are very happy with their compact .380s.

 

[L-2]

See the "Choosing Firearms" section here:
http://www.corneredcat.com/contents/

Otherwise, buy whatever you want. At this time, with the info available, there's no right answer. If she really wanted a firearm, she either would have already bought herself one, or she should be the one on these forums asking what to buy.

 

[David4516]

.380 is OK, but I don't like it in "pocket" sized guns. Those little guns are very difficult to shoot accurately, and if you're shooting a smaller round you need the best shot placement you can get.

FIVETWOSEVEN mentioned the Makarov, I will second that, they are very reliable pistols and until recently my Mak was my primary carry gun.

I can also recommend the Glock 42, my wife has one and loves it

Just never had good luck with things like LCP or KelTec 3AT, trigger pull is terrible and the sights suck.

You might want to check this out when looking into ammo:

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

Keep in mind their test gun was a G42 so smaller guns like the LCP will not do as well.

My .380 carry load of choice is the 90gr Hydra-Shok. It has a tendency to not expand, but it seems like it penetrates reliably based on a number of gel tests I've seen (including the one linked above). With the .380 it looks like you need to decide if you'd rather have a bullet expand, or penetrate, because it doesn't always have enough power to do both at the same time...

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

Otherwise, buy whatever you want. At this time, with the info available, there's no right answer. If she really wanted a firearm, she either would have already bought herself one, or she should be the one on these forums asking what to buy.

She JUST turned 21, so it will be the first one shes been able to buy. Regarding the second part to your statement, she doesnt do forums, not her thing. She bought her first rifle at the beginning of hunting season. Now she has been hammering me about wanting a carry firearm. Being that its Christmas season, I figured it would make for a good Christmas present.

Again, I was just wanting some opinions. At the end of the day, I'm going to hand her the money and tell her to have a ball.

 

[David4516]

You know another thing that might be helpful to know: do you reload?

If so you can buy a 9mm and load reduced recoil rounds for practice but carry it with full power 9mm ammo.

I found that if I load a 100gr bullet designed for .380 in the 9mm case, with a fairly light charge of 700-X, it has enough power to cycle most 9mm pistols but it feels just like shooting a .380 ACP

 

[cc-hangfire]

IMHO, short answer: .380acp is the minimum caliber acceptable for self defense.

Long answer and reasoning: see the link below for "An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power" by Greg Ellifritz. His study covers over 1800 actual shootings over a ten year period. To summarize his results, psychological stops occur with the same frequency with any caliber; a non-committed assailant just doesn't want to be shot. Physiological stops are roughly equally effective with .38spl, 9mm, .40s&w, .45acp, .357mag, & .44special. Slightly below in physiological stops is the .380acp. Calibers smaller than .380acp were not particularly effective for stopping a committed assailant (they may cause death or loss on conciousness later, but not necessarily during the attack)

And before handgun caliber war starts, Ellifritz also included shotgun & rifle statistics. Those are a level above any handgun and would always be preferred if available.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

My EDC is a Kel Tec P3AT since I work in an office environment and must during the course of work visit locations where I can not carry. The small .380acp is truly pocket carry even in dress slacks, and is the easiest to remove and secure when I can not carry. Guns that small are not pleasant to shoot though; I'm 6' tall and large and regularly shoot semiautos from pocket to full sized in calibers .22 through .45acp, and even though I shoot it regularly, the P3AT is not a fun range gun. Please have her try shooting one before purchasing. I have the newly released Remington RM380, too, & it is slightly larger and heavier and therefore more pleasant to shoot. It just hasn't got enough track record for me to recommend it yet.

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

You know another thing that might be helpful to know: do you reload?

If so you can buy a 9mm and load reduced recoil rounds for practice but carry it with full power 9mm ammo.

I found that if I load a 100gr bullet designed for .380 in the 9mm case, with a fairly light charge of 700-X, it has enough power to cycle most 9mm pistols but it feels just like shooting a .380 ACP

I do indeed reload

 

[David4516]

Perfect get the 9mm and shoot low recoil hand loads, you'll get the best of both worlds.

I forget my exact charge (don't have notes with me they're in my garage and I'm at work right now) but I think it's 4.0gr of 700-X, it gives me about 1,025 FPS with Berry's 100gr plated bullets. Soft recoil, lots of fun to shoot.

Something like the S&W shield or Glock 43 would be great for carry

 

[ZWCoffindaffer]

You know, I've been eyeballing the Glock 43. Thats actually what I was planning on getting for myself until I stumbled onto a good deal on an XDs .45 3.3(which I really like after shooting it).

 

[L-2]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp
Here's an article which addresses the .380's self-defense capabilities. Please look it over.

-The .380 at least addresses the first rule of gunfighting which is, "have a gun".
-Ammo is a bit higher in price, but ~the same as .38 Special, lately.
-There now are 9mm guns which are similar in size to the .380, which can make them a better choice, ballistically, than .380, but you've already mentioned "shot placement matters".
-To answer one of the questions, no, I've not handled the LCP .380, but it generally looks like a good weapon, especially for the price you can get it. On a related note, I wouldn't consider Glock's 42, as there are just too many reports of feeding/reliability issues.

Here's yet another link to get some ideas for your fiance. It's a woman who is a firearms advocate who carries all the time:
https://www.facebook.com/LimatunesRangeDiary/?fref=ts

It may provide you with more ideas and a perspective of what's involved. I believe she's currently carrying a 9mm S&W M&P Shield, but these things change over time. As you'll see, she's a bit on the smaller-side.

Summary.
Choose a reliable weapon in 9mm and go from there. With the weapon choice, decide on means of carry, meaning think of the weapon and handbag/holster as a system, as in, don't buy a handgun and then find there are no likable holsters available. Budget accordingly. While the initial price of the LCP .380 may be $200, with a 1,000 rounds of ammo and a handbag/holster the total cost can approach $1,000 quite easily.

Who needs 1,000 rounds? Isn't that excessive? In the short run, shooting a mere 100 rounds each time for practice, that's only 10 range visits, which will only make one better with that firearm. One may even consider herself an "expert" with that firearm. By expert, that can just mean better than before; better than some; but not necessarily better than others.

I forgot to say, "CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR UPCOMING MARRIAGE"! Let us know what you decide to buy

 

[David4516]

The G43 is my current carry gun and I have to say I really like it. I think it's a good balance between size/weight and power. It's small and light enough that I'll actually carry it often, but it's still got enough punch that I don't feel under gunned.

My only real complaint is that I don't like the standard Glock sights and I'm hoping to replace them soon with triduim night sights.

My wife says that the G43 with my reduced loads kicks less than her G42 does. The only thing keeping her from stealing the 43 from me is that she can't quite reach all the controls on the 43, but she can on the 42. The 43 isn't much bigger than the 42 but it's just enough of a difference that she notices it and prefers the 42 (she has really small hands)

 

[Fishbed77]

I'm purely talking stopping power and penetration in a real situation

I wish the term "stopping power" with regard to defensive firearm use would just go away.

At the very best, best it describes a concept can can be measured in no quantifiable way.

 

[BSA1]

Why is it when the subject of a carry gun for women comes up the most common recommendation is a small .380? Women are more likely to be a victim of violent crime and that puts them in need a powerful handgun.

The females in my family use a Colt Police Positive Special (38 Spl) 4" barrel and a Ruger SR9c. I'm the one that fools around with .380 class (actually 9x18) handguns.

 

[Jim NE]

I think a .380 is a viable choice, but an LCP may not be. Only because felt recoil may be more than some average sized 9mm's. Slightly larger .380's could be a real good choice for women. Bersa's seem to have a good reputation for reliability for not a lot of money, but I've not owned one, so I can't recommend one due to no hands on experience. Maybe someone else can give you more info on that brand. I just feel that an LCP could be very unpleasant to shoot for some (but not all) women. Good luck.

 

[entropy]

Have her try some different ones out at a range that rents, and or guns borrowed from friends. One particular pistol I recommend is the CZ82 or CZ83. The 82 is 9mm Makarov, not a huge choice of defensive ammo available, but it will do the job. The 83 is .380 ACP. 82's are easier to find, and a little less $. The S&W Shield would be an excellent choice, also.
Jim NE, I have shot several Bersa .380's, and they are a good choice also. More tolerable recoil than the LCP or P3AT, very reliable, easy ergonomics.

 

[samweller]

Why not a Lady Smith?

 

[huntsman]

I carry an LCP, 6 years now all good as far as I'm concerned. The only issue she may have is with tight jeans and pocket carry, I always wear 5 pocket baggy jeans so pocket carry works for me.

 

[TfflHndn]

Interesting article, but I think that the .32 H&R and the .327 Fed Mag would change the perception of the .32 as unsuitable for SD purposes. I do carry a .32 S&W long occasionally, but I don't see it as my ideal SD caliber. I would have no qualms about the two .32 magnum calibers, however, being up to the job. That said, my most common carry is a .357mag. I happen to think that a .380 is not the best choice for SD (for anyone, man or woman) who is not going to practice regularly with it. A revolver that can be simply picked up and shot is far better than a pistol that the owner forgets how to operate.

 

[Tallball]

My wife and daughter prefer 32 magnum snubs. They are way easier to shoot.

I sometimes carry the Keltec that is extremely similar to the LCP. I can hit a paper plate every time at 7 yards, but my larger heavier 380's are much more accurate for me. It isn't a fun gun for me to shoot. I have XL hands, and it makes them hurt after a few magazines.

But it sure is easy to carry! I can conceal it even in small shorts and t-shirt. It can go with me when any of my larger centerfire handguns would have to stay home.

 

[kituwa]

I have a LCP, a new one. I hear a lot of talk about the long trigger pull and either they have fixed that or my gun is an exception because the trigger pull is excellent for a double action only. Nice light pull that is very smooth with no stacking of any kind, much better than the dbl action on any snub nose .38 that i have ever shot andi have shot them all. I do wish it had second strike though.Mine is very reliable, have had no FTF or FTE whatsoever. I can hit well with most any snub .38 but the LCP is even easier to me. The gun is tiny though, and looks like a toy so it wont have much of a fright factori am afraid, not anything like even a snubby .38. Almost all self defense handguns are not good stoppers. Pretty much all of them just poke a hole. Handgun stopping power is not like you see on tv or like we are led to believe. Many if not most times the person will not even feel that they have been shot at first. I use handguns to deer and hog hunt a lot with much bigger rounds than most selfdefence guns are chambered for so i am very aware of bullet effect on living creatures. Even the mighty .45 auto willnot blow a hog off its feet and often they show little effect at first that they are mortally wounded unless you get a CNS hit. If you have seen many of the human body drawings from autopsy reports that show where a victim wa****, it is common more times than not to show wounds in the arms. If a true self defence then it stands to reason that the perp will usually already have his gun or knife up so the bullet strikeing hands or arms stands to reason. I think that is another good reason to consider FMJ ammo. For the .380 winchest has a flat point FMJ that shouldcouse a slight bit more damage than a standard round nose FMJ.