(OH) Sheriff sued after denying gun permit

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Drizzt

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Sheriff sued after denying gun permit

By TOM GIAMBRONI Journal Staff Writer

LISBON - County Sheriff David L. Smith may form a board
to review applications of persons he denied permits to carry concealed weapons.

The idea was suggested Wednesday by the Mahoning County Common Pleas Court magistrate presiding over the lawsuit filed by a man whose application for a permit to carry a concealed weapon was denied by Smith.

"I'm the final word but there is a provision in the law that says I can set up a review board to look at denials," he said.

The Mahoning County man, identified in the lawsuit as John Doe, filed a lawsuit against the sheriff last July, asking a judge for an order requiring Smith issue him a concealed carry permit.

This is the only appeal filed to date since the new concealed carry law went into effect last April. The law allows residents to seek permits in adjoining counties.

The law requires applicants to be notified within 45 days whether their application has been approved or denied. The man said in his lawsuit Smith failed to advise him within 45 days that his application had been denied.

When Smith did deny the application, he advised the man in writing it was because the law allows the sheriff to reject an application from someone he considers drug or alcohol dependent.

During the mandatory background checks, Smith said his staff learned that John Doe had five previous DUI convictions. Doe later told him it was more like nine DUIs, but the last one was more than 10 years ago.

Smith said the man claimed to have quit drinking more than 10 years ago but he has no way of knowing that for sure, which is why he denied the application.

Most of the DUIs occurred before the new DUI law went into effect about 10 years ago, which make a fourth DUI conviction in six years a felony offense.

During Wednesday's court hearing, the magistrate suggested Smith create a review board to resolve the dispute. Smith said such a board would possibly consist of a deputy, a private citizen and perhaps an attorney.

The purpose of such a board would be to give the applicant an opportunity to challenge the evidence that resulted in the permit being denied and whether John Doe still has a drinking problem.

Assistant County Prosecutor Nick Barborak said the problem is the law is vague about how to address appeals and even if review boards are allowed.

"It's not real clear what the sheriff can and cannot do," Barborak said. "What remains to be decided is what procedure has to be followed."

The next hearing in John Doe's lawsuit is scheduled for May 2, and Smith expects to have a review board in place by then.

Of the more than 400 permits issued by Smith, less than 10 applications have been turned down.

http://www.morningjournalnews.com/news/story/039202005_new04news10.asp
 
According to the article, the guy quit drinking and has been sober for 10+ years. Denying him a CCW permit for alcohol dependancy is not correct IMHO. Sure, he could relapse. Sure, he could be lying.

But it's also possible that someone who does not have a DUI record could simply have not been caught. Or if they are teetotallers they could take up drinking. Is that a reason to deny anyone else a CCW permit?
 
Whether or not this guy should have CCW is not the issue for me. What is wrong here is how vague the law is, giving the sheriff too much unilateral power. Even when there is a review board it is made up of three people selected by him?
 
Or someone could fall afoul of the town gossips. I guess if you are denying people you better have some demonstratable facts. BTW where does the Second amendment say that, "this right is void for those who imbibe"? The antis want to divide and conquer don't fall for it. We should support gun ownership by any not excluded by federal law.
 
I know someone who was a severe pot-head more recently than 10 years ago and has since cleaned up is act, served in the Marines, is still a Marine reservist, and now supports a heathy family. I certainly wouldn't deny him a CCW for his past indiscressions. He's truely turned his life around.

If I were John Doe, I'd fight for that permit too. If he can prove that he's clean, that's good enough for me until he does something wrong, and then he'll be handled like any one else. No special treatment, good or bad, for who he was. Who he is now should be the focus.
 
This guys a drunk and the last person that should be issued a CCW.
Yeah, put him behind Charlie Manson, Sammy Gravano, and Brian Nichols. Maybe we should just execute him? Or at least cut off his hands.
 
I just love these elected officials who assume "I am the final word".

They need to be reminded of the concept of "Public Servant" vs. "Lord & Master".

"Power corrupts........" and a county sheriff has a lot of power.
 
The MO CCW law actually has a part where if you are denied, you can take the sherriff to small claims court to get it reviewed, and/or your fee money back at least.

I agree with the majority of posters on this, his last violation was over ten years ago. Unless it was a violent offense and/or a firearms offense, it should have no bearing since he has stated that he is sober now.

And yes, that sherriff needs to be reminded at election time that he is Not the Final Say, his Voters are the Final Say.
 
if he denies someone a CCW permit because he was a drunk he might as well not issue any because anyone and i do mean ANYONE can become a drunk or a drug user even after they get a permit.

i think the sherrif has a little too much say in this matter and i think it sucks.
 
There is a HUGE difference between being 'a drunk' (ie, enjoying alcahol in the privacy of your own home, out on the town, etc.)

And the CRIME of driving under the influence!

Today those consecutive DUIs would be Felony, and he would not be able to touch a gun ever again, let alone carry one.

NINE ****ing DUIs?! That is a serious criminal record, indicative of a pattern. One or two 10 years ago, ok, fine. NINE?!?!

He clearly did not know how to handle his alcahol. Alcaholism is a disease, as that Sherrif, I would need clear and convincing evidence he has cured himself of that disease.

Should we lock him away from guns forever for these DUIs long ago? Aparently so, as is now the law it's a felony! He just got lucky and was granfathered.

We're not talking about someone getting busted for having pot in their pants (and NOT in their system) with a broke tail-light, we're talking about NINE COUNTS OF DUI, THREE OF THEM WHICH WOULD BE FELONY UNDER CURRENT LAW!



During the mandatory background checks, Smith said his staff learned that John Doe had five previous DUI convictions. Doe later told him it was more like nine DUIs, but the last one was more than 10 years ago.
 
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I have a friend in AA

11 years of sobriety,he was allways driving drunk (never caught).
He does have a record for assault when he was a teen (he turned his life around in AA).
He is now an E7 and just got back from Bagdhad (Infantry) I would trust him with my life and I can certainly trust him with a ccw,10 years of no arrest is evidence enough, let john doe carry his gun,he's earned it!
 
mfree ..... You know the man personally, I gather?

Yes


As I stated earlier and will elaborate a bit here. The guy went after his CCW knowing full well he'd be turned down. Now he wants his day in court.




.
 
The right to have a gun is not something that needs to be "earned". It's a basic human right you are born with. The whole thing is ridiculous, you shouldn't even need a permit in the first place. Rights are not something you need to ask permission to exercise. :cuss: :fire:
 
Something is wrong with the system then guys. This guy would be a FELON today.

Meaning he's no longer a "Person" as in "We the People."

No guns.

No voting.

Likely no chance at a job anymore with background checks.




And we want to let this guy carry this guy a gun?

Maybe he has turned his life around, but as a sherrif I'd need to see that. And maybe enough such that a judge would restore a felon's citizenry.
 
Up here in Michigan, when they were writting the CCW law, this problem was addressed. If there was a DUI conviction within an 8 year period prior to the application for a CCW, then the permit was denied. It saved a lot of time, money and grief knowing in advance wether you would get denied or accepted.
 
im not sure how i feel about this guy in particular, BUT
**just the mention of the fact that the guy's DUI's would add up to a felony under current law=
**ex post facto** totally bogus application of law after the fact, and by mentioning it, it sounds to me as though it is a factor.
not right.
 
I am similar to the fellow Gunsmith described. I had my last drink June 10, 1984. I have been an MP, Deputy and not a psychologist working with kids in the past 20 years (since sobriety). I also hold a 01 FFL because I was at least smart enough not to drive. I would say though that many of us have driven in such condition at one time or another.

People can change. Seems like this fellow wants to test the limits of the legal system. This is still the US and he has a right to petition his government for redress of grievence. At least he is doing something instead of whining.
 
Nothing wrong with a DUI if......

I had my second DUI over 12 years ago and it was the best thing that ever happened to me!!! Here in Illinois you have to get sober and prove it before you ever get your driving priveliges back. It wasnt untill I sobered up that I realized I had a drinking problem and that I really did like life better being sober. Of course Illinois wont give anyone a CCW at least not untill we change that law, but I have them from three states that give non resident permits. As far as people faking it, yes that will happen and when they get busted again they will deserve all that they get. Jim.
 
I would say though that many of us have driven in such condition at one time or another.

Good point. While I don't see any other solution, I don't nessecarily agree that DUI is even a crime. After all, I have not actually injured anyone. I have just crossed an arbitrary line (0.08BAC) of something in my blood that effects different people in different ways.

Granted, I'm not likely to be stoped/tested unless I am already out of control of my vehicle, yet I detest the idea of criminalizing a not-quite-yet-a-crime. In the same way the antis argue that having guns around 'begats violence' because of their psycological effect.


I have actually noticed that a moderate ammount of alcahol actually improves my reflexes slightly (I'm talking ~2glasses of wine here, not trashed.) Since I don't carry a breathalizer, but rather go by my own judgement weather I am too tired, intoxicated, mad, etc to drive every time I operate any machinery, I may indeed have 'driven drunk' ie been at 0.09BAC behind the wheel of a car.


Drunken idoits however are clearly a problem, other than criminalizing DUI and pulling over obvious reckless drivers, I am not sure there is a solution?
 
I have actually noticed that a moderate ammount of alcahol actually improves my reflexes slightly (I'm talking ~2glasses of wine here, not trashed.)
One of the classic arguments advanced by alcoholics.

Physiologically, what you claim is impossible. Alcohol does not sharpen any senses nor increase the speed of any reflexes. What it does is dull your perceptions sufficiently that impaired reflexes appear faster.

Bad combination.
 
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