Ok, I'm still looking for the perfect AR....

[Sanderguy777]

I have specific questions though, so some of my research has at least pointed towards what I need.
I'm trying to save money, so I am sticking with a "normal" caliber (.223 or .300blk)


1. BIGGEST QUESTION: I want to hunt with a 6mm arc. I can get an Odin Works upper for $650, but I'm not really looking to spend more than $1k, AND I want .223 for plinking. If I get the kit I like, I have $400 or so into a .223 rifle kit, another $80 into a stripped lower, and the $650 into the 6mm arc upper. That gets me to the $1200 to $1300 mark with tax.
These are the parts:

https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/anderson-manufacturing-am-15-stripped-lower-receiver

(One of these from $400 to $500, please recommend)

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/rifle-kits/railed-rifle-kits.html?product_list_order=price_asc

And then the Odin Works upper for $650.

2. Would a PSA EPT trigger be a noticeable upgrade for me as a newer shooter, over rhe mil spec? Or will I not really notice a difference till I hit the $150+ triggers?

 

[HKGuns]

You are all over the map.

First you're worried about a $30 transfer fee, then you're talking about some over priced, hot garbage, with a gimmick thumb actuated trigger.

I'd research your components a lot more and rely less on marketing and more on reputation. None of the components you have listed would I consider to be highly reputed. Odin works barrels are a crap shoot and aren't known for their accuracy.

16" is the legal limit.

 

[Legionnaire]

I wanted a 6 ARC. I bought a 6.5 Grendel on sale from PSA. Sold the barrel and replaced it with a 24-inch 6 ARC barrel from EABCO. It shoots sub-MOA with Hornady ammo.

 

[Sanderguy777]

I wanted a 6 ARC. I bought a 6.5 Grendel on sale from PSA. Sold the barrel and replaced it with a 24-inch 6 ARC barrel from EABCO. It shoots sub-MOA with Hornady ammo.

Thank you.

How much would a kit cost that would let me change a barrel? Do I need anything more than the wrench?

 

[Space Ghost]

You don't "look for" the perfect AR.
You look for one that's "close enough".
You "build" the perfect AR.
Too many options available, and personal tastes / needs are too varied.
Your "perfect" isn't gonna be like that of anybody else...

 

[Sanderguy777]

You are all over the map.

First you're worried about a $30 transfer fee, then you're talking about some over priced, hot garbage, with a gimmick thumb actuated trigger.

I'd research your components a lot more and rely less on marketing and more on reputation. None of the components you have listed would I consider to be highly reputed. Odin works barrels are a crap shoot and aren't known for their accuracy.

16" is the legal limit.

Ok, so I AM researching. This is a forum. It's used to spread ideas and info about things. I can search websites and forums till the cows come home, and I come back to what I said in the first place. I really want to be sub $1k with 6mm arc AND .223 or .300blk capability.

I do know that 16" is the legal limit, but there seems to be a "loop hile" that allows shorter barrels if the muzzle device is welded and pinned. That magic number is what I was asking about. Can I get a 13.7" barrel if it has a 2.3" muzzle device so it's all 16"? Or does the barrel itself HAVE to be 16" specifically?

 

[Sanderguy777]

You don't "look for" the perfect AR.
You look for one that's "close enough".
You "build" the perfect AR.
Too many options available, and personal tastes / needs are too varied.
Your "perfect" isn't gonna be like that of anybody else...

I'll edit my post, but mainly I want to know if the components I linked would be a good, 1moa rifle (also if I should just get the 6mm arc upper and save the other one for later).

 

[Sanderguy777]

You are all over the map.

First you're worried about a $30 transfer fee, then you're talking about some over priced, hot garbage, with a gimmick thumb actuated trigger.

I'd research your components a lot more and rely less on marketing and more on reputation. None of the components you have listed would I consider to be highly reputed. Odin works barrels are a crap shoot and aren't known for their accuracy.

16" is the legal limit.

Fixed it.

 

[Sanderguy777]

You are all over the map.

Yes, and sorry for my hot reply. I understand that those parts aren't top of the line, or even really mid tier. If you have better suggestions that might keep me in that $1k to $1300 range, I'd be happy to hear them. If Odin Works isn't good, what about CMMG? If neither of them are good, rhen would swapping out the barrel be good enough, or would I need a barrel and new BCG as well?

 

[Legionnaire]

How much would a kit cost that would let me change a barrel? Do I need anything more than the wrench?

I like a good action (reaction) rod. I have one from Midwest Industries (~$120), but Wheeler makes one that's less expensive (~$60). You'll need a wrench, but I wouldn't buy one until you know what kind of barrel nut you're working with. If you go with PSA, you'll also need a few common allen wrenches to remove the handguard.

The 6 ARC has a different bolt from the .223/300 BLK. My suggestion is separate uppers so you don't have to keep changing barrels and BCGs.

 

[Charlie98]

The 6 ARC has a different bolt from the .223/300 BLK. My suggestion is separate uppers so you don't have to keep changing barrels and BCGs.

That's what I was going to suggest.

In all seriousness... build or buy the rifle you want to shoot right now. Save your lunch money up to buy a completed upper (or complete rifle) in the other cartridge in the meantime. I usually recommend one in .223/5.56mm simply because of the (relatively, these days...) low cost to shoot it. Buy it, shoot it, find out what you like or don't like about it, and then incorporate those lessons into your next upper or build... you spend less money that way, and get more of what you want without swapping parts all the time.

Standard triggers can be really, really good, or they can be horrible... it's luck of the draw. Most of mine are pretty good, but pale in comparison to a good target trigger.

I built an AR-10 in 6.5CM with an Odin Works barrel, it's been a pretty good barrel. I've also had decent service out of a few Ballistic Advantage barrels, but I had to clean one up that had obviously been turned with some worn out dies.

My last AR-15 was a PSA deal. It was a very nicely assembled upper, a properly assembled upper, and made a good service rifle.

Good tools are expensive, cheap tools are cheap. I spent about $200 on various tools to work on AR's... worth every penny.

 

[HKGuns]

As others are more or less saying, decide your priority, 6ARC or 556. You certainly won't get the perfect rifle in both cartridges within your current budget.

Availability pretty much makes this an obvious choice, so buy a 556 rifle and save for a separate 6ARC upper.

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a 556 Colt rifle and ammo. That will be a solid foundation for anything you may want to do later. Learn to shoot the 556 first, then tackle the 6ARC for hunting.

If you can't stand the milspec trigger look at the Sionics enhanced milspec trigger. It is $60 well spent.

 

[Legionnaire]

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a 556 Colt rifle and ammo. That will be a solid foundation for anything you may want to do later. Learn to shoot the 556 first, then tackle the 6ARC for hunting.

Just my experience. I tried running a PSA 6.5 Grendel upper on my Colt 6920 lower. Couldn't get it to run consistently. Cheap PSA lower bought on sale ran smoothly. YMMV.

 

[Sanderguy777]

I like a good action (reaction) rod. I have one from Midwest Industries (~$120), but Wheeler makes one that's less expensive (~$60). You'll need a wrench, but I wouldn't buy one until you know what kind of barrel nut you're working with. If you go with PSA, you'll also need a few common allen wrenches to remove the handguard.

The 6 ARC has a different bolt from the .223/300 BLK. My suggestion is separate uppers so you don't have to keep changing barrels and BCGs.

ok, that sounds like a good idea (I forgot about that upper rod). I do have a soft jaw vise (wood with rubber pads) I can use, but a good tool is better than a Jerry rig most of the time.

Definitely will do 2 uppers. I meant that I might buy 2 .223 uppers and swap the barrel from one to 6mm. If I did that, would I just need the wrench and rod? (I have a shop with basic tools, just no gun specific ones yet).

That's what I was going to suggest.

In all seriousness... build or buy the rifle you want to shoot right now. Save your lunch money up to buy a completed upper (or complete rifle) in the other cartridge in the meantime. I usually recommend one in .223/5.56mm simply because of the (relatively, these days...) low cost to shoot it. Buy it, shoot it, find out what you like or don't like about it, and then incorporate those lessons into your next upper or build... you spend less money that way, and get more of what you want without swapping parts all the time.

Standard triggers can be really, really good, or they can be horrible... it's luck of the draw. Most of mine are pretty good, but pale in comparison to a good target trigger.

I built an AR-10 in 6.5CM with an Odin Works barrel, it's been a pretty good barrel. I've also had decent service out of a few Ballistic Advantage barrels, but I had to clean one up that had obviously been turned with some worn out dies.

My last AR-15 was a PSA deal. It was a very nicely assembled upper, a properly assembled upper, and made a good service rifle.

Good tools are expensive, cheap tools are cheap. I spent about $200 on various tools to work on AR's... worth every penny.

Seems like a good tool set, and a PSA or Aero build/rifle is the way to go, and then just find what I love or hate.

As others are more or less saying, decide your priority, 6ARC or 556. You certainly won't get the perfect rifle in both cartridges within your current budget.

Availability pretty much makes this an obvious choice, so buy a 556 rifle and save for a separate 6ARC upper.

If I were in your shoes, I'd buy a 556 Colt rifle and ammo. That will be a solid foundation for anything you may want to do later. Learn to shoot the 556 first, then tackle the 6ARC for hunting.

If you can't stand the milspec trigger look at the Sionics enhanced milspec trigger. It is $60 well spent.

Good idea. Which Colt do you recommend? The cheapest one, or should I start off with a floated guard one?

Would ruger or S&W be ok? Or is Colt the low end of what you think is worth buying? (I know their chrome is top notch, or was anyway. (Not sure if it is still)

 

[Sanderguy777]

Just my experience. I tried running a PSA 6.5 Grendel upper on my Colt 6920 lower. Couldn't get it to run consistently. Cheap PSA lower bought on sale ran smoothly. YMMV.

Interesting... Did you ever figure out what was wrong?





Also, to hkguns; the iron horse is the same price, or less than any colt I've seen ($999, vs $1100+). It is supposed to be a really nice weapon. Just a different trigger than anything else (which limits side to side wiggle from your trigger finger, thus helping accuracy some. And based on what I've heard from pro archers, your thumb is a better option for actuation a shot because it moves slower. Not saying anything one way or another, but it's an interesting idea).

 

[HKGuns]

The best price you can find on a 6920. An FSB upper includes the sights, so you're not stuck having to add an optic to the cost.

 

[jmorris]

I don’t have hundreds of AR’s but I do have enough to know there isn’t a single one that would be perfect across the board.

A number of them could be perfect for a narrow range of tasks, across the board, they would still become compromises from “perfect”.

You can achieve a decent trigger with a stone, springs and a set screw, if you have a milspec trigger to start with.

 

[Legionnaire]

Definitely will do 2 uppers. I meant that I might buy 2 .223 uppers and swap the barrel from one to 6mm. If I did that, would I just need the wrench and rod? (I have a shop with basic tools, just no gun specific ones yet).

I would not buy two .223 uppers. The 6 ARC uses a different BCG. If you can't find a 6 ARC upper you like, buy a Grendel and swap barrels. You want your upper to be optimized for the 6mm class cartridge.

And no, I never figured out why the Grendel wouldn't run on the Colt lower. I assume the upper's rifle-length gas system didn't play well with the lower from a carbine-length system. I replaced the recoil spring and tried a couple different buffers without success. Decided it was easier to buy an inexpensive PSA lower on sale.

 

[Riomouse911]

Ok, so I AM researching. This is a forum. It's used to spread ideas and info about things. I can search websites and forums till the cows come home, and I come back to what I said in the first place. I really want to be sub $1k with 6mm arc AND .223 or .300blk capability.

I do know that 16" is the legal limit, but there seems to be a "loop hile" that allows shorter barrels if the muzzle device is welded and pinned. That magic number is what I was asking about. Can I get a 13.7" barrel if it has a 2.3" muzzle device so it's all 16"? Or does the barrel itself HAVE to be 16" specifically?

As long as the barrel meets or exceeds 16”, whether by barrel length itself or a combination of barrel and non-removable muzzle device (flash hider, compensator, etc.) then you are ok.

The device must be “pinned and welded”, which means that a hole is drilled through the hider and into the barrel and then welded over. Anyone trying to remove the hider will irreparably damage the barrel, or high temp silver soldered in place (which also would be very tough to remove and probably damage the barrel.)

When I made my 14.5” BCM upper legal I used a Phantom flash hider because a) they work great and b) they are long enough to exceed 16” when installed. I used a short length of 5/32 cobalt drill bit as the pin. With my press I slowly drilled through the hider and a bit into the barrel (you don’t want to drill far enough into the barrel to punch into the bore, get so close to the bore as to weaken it or damage the rifling, etc.) I fitted the pin and welded it over so the pin can’t be pulled out nor can the hider removed by simply unscrewing it.

I purposely left a little rough spot under the hider to make it obvious that it was pinned and welded to anyone examining my gun. A blip of high temp flat black BBQ paint and it’s ready to go.




The 16.4” pencil barrel on my pre-Cerberus Group DPMS range toy was already legal length when I put this phantom on, it can be removed if I want to change it.

The only genuine negative I can think of with permanent hider mounting is if the gun is dropped and the hider is bent or damaged. You will be stuck with replacing a whole barrel/hider if that happens since it can’t be just taken off.

This is the overall length difference between AR’s with barrels of 14.5” and 16.4”. With the effort involved in a DIY build, it really is not a great deal of length in the grand scheme of things. If you go shorter than 14.5”, you will need a permanent flash hider or comp that is long enough to make up the difference to meet or exceed 16” OAL. So, choose wisely, and measure it all three times before you drill/weld, to be sure you don’t pin yourself together a “short barreled rifle” (SBR) by mistake. That would be bad.



Good luck! Let us know what you bought/built when you are all done.

Stay safe..

 

[Sanderguy777]

The best price you can find on a 6920. An FSB upper includes the sights, so you're not stuck having to add an optic to the cost.

Ok. Looks like they run about $1100. What about the Geissele El Jefe. I forget if it's the same or $100 more. Definitely more along the lines of what I want though. (Although, colt has this option I wouldn't mind, always loved that look https://www.classicfirearms.com/colt-ar15a4-ar15a4-sa-556/ )

I don’t have hundreds of AR’s but I do have enough to know there isn’t a single one that would be perfect across the board.

A number of them could be perfect for a narrow range of tasks, across the board, they would still become compromises from “perfect”.

You can achieve a decent trigger with a stone, springs and a set screw, if you have a milspec trigger to start with.

I mean, I don't need perfect. I was just wondering if I would (as a relative noob) be able to feel the difference between a mill spec or a better trigger. Especially concerning accuracy, which is one of my main concerns

I would not buy two .223 uppers. The 6 ARC uses a different BCG. If you can't find a 6 ARC upper you like, buy a Grendel and swap barrels. You want your upper to be optimized for the 6mm class cartridge.

And no, I never figured out why the Grendel wouldn't run on the Colt lower. I replaced the recoil spring and tried a couple different buffers without success. Decided it was easier to buy an inexpensive PSA lower on sale.

That makes sense.

As long as the barrel meets or exceeds 16”, whether by barrel length itself or a combination of barrel and non-removable muzzle device (flash hider, compensator, etc.) then you are ok.

The device must be “pinned and welded”, which means that a hole is drilled through the hider and into the barrel and then welded over. Anyone trying to remove the hider will irreparably damage the barrel, or high temp silver soldered in place (which also would be very tough to remove and probably damage the barrel.)

When I made my 14.5” BCM upper legal I used a Phantom flash hider because a) they work great and b) they are long enough to exceed 16” when installed. I used a short length of 5/32 cobalt drill bit as the pin. With my press I slowly drilled through the hider and a bit into the barrel (you don’t want to drill far enough into the barrel to punch into the bore, get so close to the bore as to weaken it or damage the rifling, etc.) I fitted the pin and welded it over so the pin can’t be pulled out nor can the hider removed by simply unscrewing it.

I purposely left a little rough spot under the hider to make it obvious that it was pinned and welded to anyone examining my gun. A blip of high temp flat black BBQ paint and it’s ready to go.

View attachment 1178028


The 16.4” pencil barrel on my pre-Cerberus Group DPMS range toy was already legal length when I put this phantom on, it can be removed if I want to change it.

The only genuine negative I can think of with permanent hider mounting is if the gun is dropped and the hider is bent or damaged. You will be stuck with replacing a whole barrel/hider if that happens since it can’t be just taken off.

This is the overall length difference between AR’s with barrels of 14.5” and 16.4”. With the effort involved in a DIY build, it really is not a great deal of length in the grand scheme of things. If you go shorter than 14.5”, you will need a permanent flash hider or comp that is long enough to make up the difference to meet or exceed 16” OAL. So, choose wisely, and measure it all three times before you drill/weld, to be sure you don’t pin yourself together a “short barreled rifle” (SBR) by mistake. That would be bad.

View attachment 1178029

Good luck! Let us know what you bought/built when you are all done.

Stay safe..

Oh, wow! Thanks! Definitely don't want to sbr something LOL. I'm really glad you showed that. It is 100% NOT a big enough difference for what I need it to do. This is likely.

 

[Charlie98]

Definitely don't want to sbr something LOL.

TBH, I never dipped my toe into the short-barreled pseudo SBR nonsense... I run 16" barrels, and I don't have to worry about paperwork or Federal time. I knew, eventually, the BATFE would try to bring the hammer down on AR 'pistols,' and so they have. Granted, I don't run a suppressor, or shoot .300BO, or any combo thereof, and a 1.5" longer barrel doesn't make that much of a difference to me. I carried a 20" M16 when I was in the service, so anything shorter than that is bonus time...

as a relative noob

That's why I'm suggesting you just get a box stock .223/5.56mm AR-15 in a reasonable configuration for your needs. Seriously... AR's look alike, but the devil is in the details... I've refined what I like over the past 30 years of shooting AR's. What I like now would not have been what I wanted back then, or even 10 years ago. I like buying stuff, but I don't like wasting money, if you see the difference. Buy one, shoot the crap out of it... figure out what you like or dislike about the details... THEN go forth and build your ultimate AR.

 

[Sanderguy777]

TBH, I never dipped my toe into the short-barreled pseudo SBR nonsense... I run 16" barrels, and I don't have to worry about paperwork or Federal time. I knew, eventually, the BATFE would try to bring the hammer down on AR 'pistols,' and so they have. Granted, I don't run a suppressor, or shoot .300BO, or any combo thereof, and a 1.5" longer barrel doesn't make that much of a difference to me. I carried a 20" M16 when I was in the service, so anything shorter than that is bonus time...



That's why I'm suggesting you just get a box stock .223/5.56mm AR-15 in a reasonable configuration for your needs. Seriously... AR's look alike, but the devil is in the details... I've refined what I like over the past 30 years of shooting AR's. What I like now would not have been what I wanted back then, or even 10 years ago. I like buying stuff, but I don't like wasting money, if you see the difference. Buy one, shoot the crap out of it... figure out what you like or dislike about the details... THEN go forth and build your ultimate AR.

Ok, that makes sense. I'll definitely just do the .223 then. What do you recommend for a "box stock" ar? You talking cheapest upper and lower, or what I can afford now, with the upgrades I think I want?

Edit: I ask because I'm hearing Colt is the best starting point, but I'm tempted to try PSA and save some. Would a Springfield or S&W be a better choice? (Or the El jefe from Geissele, for that matter)

 

[marksman13]

Going from 223 to 6 ARC is going to require at minimum a barrel, bolt and magazine swap, and I promise, you aren’t going to swap that barrel more than a time or two before you realize that you’d be better off having at minimum two complete uppers. Just buy the rifle you want in 223 and buy appropriate ammo for the game you are hunting. 223 is just fine for deer within 200 yards.

 

[Charlie98]

Ok, that makes sense. I'll definitely just do the .223 then. What do you recommend for a "box stock" ar? You talking cheapest upper and lower, or what I can afford now, with the upgrades I think I want?

Edit: I ask because I'm hearing Colt is the best starting point, but I'm tempted to try PSA and save some. Would a Springfield or S&W be a better choice? (Or the El jefe from Geissele, for that matter)

That subject has been beat, ad nauseam. I have had good luck with PSA, like many others, but they are not the only game in town. I also have a El Cheapo DPMS Oracle, which was about as stripped down as you could get and still use it... and it's fine... now. That's the one that had the barrel nut hand tight from the factory. I have a Colt... Colts are a solid choice, but mine has issues... quite honestly, the worst trigger in the safe, and that on an H-Bar target rifle... so go figure. Springy and S&W make good rifles, Ruger makes a good one. The list goes on. Pick one.

 

[Charlie98]

I guess I can throw a picture out...

L to R... PSA carbine build on my assembled lower, my first AR build, mostly RRA parts, and my DPMS Oracle.

My RRA build is a good example... that thing has had parts put on, taken off, disassembled, reassembled... as I worked through what I liked and disliked.

An earlier version of the RRA... with fixed shorty stock and an optic...

...you can't be an Operator without a vertical grip, right?

Folding stock... (excuse the toes...)