OK, now lets discuss the 22 TCM

[Rule3]

The 5.7 thread I posted brought up the 22 TCM, so rather than side track that starting this one.
Yes there are threads out there but more interesting than brass cleaning

This is another zippy round that looks like it would be a cool to shoot. I never bought one as it was only in a 1911 "platform" and did not want that. Now Rock Island (Armscor) has the MAPP version and the slide conversion for Glocks BUT:
That round is the 22TCM9R. It appears to be the same brass but has a 39 gr bullet rather than a 40 gr (what's the difference?) and it is seated shorter.

The gun is a CZ/Tanfoglio clone. polymer and mush less expensive than the 1911 22TCM

I e mailed (chat) with Rock Island and the 39 gr bullets are not available. On another website I found the brass and 40 grain bullets but that would be for the 22TCM

I would probably buy a MAPP version if I could reload it, but components (bullets) are an unknown??

Anyone play with this cartridge??

http://armscor.com/firearms/mapp-series/mapp-ms-9mm/

Brass and 40 gr bullets

http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=tcm0

 

[Havok7416]

Man, you are killing me with this stuff! Now I want a MAPP!

Although I don't have any dimensional specifics, I can't see what would make the 9R any different from a normal TIM. Hopefully I'm right because now someone has me all fired up about a new toy!

 

[Havok7416]

From Armscor themselves:
http://news.armscor.com/blog/armsco...-designed-for-9mm-conversion-kit-compatibilit

Just like the existing TCM ammo, TCM 9R ammo also functions in TCM chambered 1911s from Rock Island Armory.

So according to them the rounds should be interchangeable, at least going from 9R to standard. That would seem to indicate the 9R brass us shorter to match loaded 9mm length.

 

[fxvr5]

So according to them the rounds should be interchangeable, at least going from 9R to standard. That would seem to indicate the 9R brass us shorter to match loaded 9mm length.

The 22 TCM and 22 TCM9R cases are the same length. The overall length is different - the 9R bullet is seated deeper to bring it within 9mm-length.

See the picture here: http://www.shootingtimes.com/gear-accessories/review-ria-22-tcm-conversion-kits/

 

[Rule3]

This also explains it (I guess) If I can get the darn 39 gr 9R bullet I will buy one of the MAPP

http://www.guns.com/2015/02/17/armscor-drops-new-details-on-22-tcm-9r-glock-conversion-kits/

 

[Havok7416]

The real question to me is does it really matter if you use a 39gr bullet or a 40gr? It shouldn't matter since it's only 1 grain difference. Even if the load is already compressed, the charge can be backed off just a bit.

Heck, I load for bullets that are off by 1-5 grains (in larger calibers and therefore with different margins) using the same load data. Even then, there is a load range that should safely allow you to work up a load with the 40gr bullet. Even the 5.7x28 has a narrow .5 grain window with one type of powder (I can't recall which one exactly).

My guess is Armscor has the different bullets to distinguish at a glance between the deeper seated loads and the "standard" pressure loadings.

 

[Rule3]

The real question to me is does it really matter if you use a 39gr bullet or a 40gr? It shouldn't matter since it's only 1 grain difference. Even if the load is already compressed, the charge can be backed off just a bit.

Heck, I load for bullets that are off by 1-5 grains (in larger calibers and therefore with different margins) using the same load data. Even then, there is a load range that should safely allow you to work up a load with the 40gr bullet. Even the 5.7x28 has a narrow .5 grain window with one type of powder (I can't recall which one exactly).

My guess is Armscor has the different bullets to distinguish at a glance between the deeper seated loads and the "standard" pressure loadings.

Yes for "regular" cartridges a grain difference doen't matter but look at the profile of the bullet, it is a different "animal"

From what I have read the powder of choice is H110/W296 in a small piece of brass, so I think bullet seating depth is going to make a big difference

The bullet profile (short and stubby) so it can chamber properly.

The cannelures of the bullets line up so you can't stuff the 40 grain deeper in the case to have the nose match the 39 gr bullet.

 

[Havok7416]

Here is a site discussing loads all the way down to 33gr: http://www.keystoneweapon.com/TCM.html

Here's another great page discussing the similarities to .22 Hornet: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/handload-22-tcm/ They specifically mention that a 35-grain Hornady V-Max is likely suitable.

I see a lot of load data using 2400, AA#9 and Lil Gun among others. That offers safer options for downloading.

In a bottleneck you wouldn't necessarily have to seat at the cannelure, but I understand it may be more complex than that. In fact, that's part of my reasoning for not loading 5.7x28mm. In any event, as far as I can tell the issue of the lighter, deeper-seated bullet only applies if you are trying to get the cartridge to fit in the Glock conversion - specifically the magazine. Obviously the RIA 1911 is built for it and handles it well - reports are that in the 1911 you can load the COL out to 1.275.

I imagine it won't take too long for another loading manual to come out with something on the .22 TCM.

 

[fxvr5]

Accurate now has a powder specifically for the 22 TCM.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/products/handgun/?view=25&product=TCM

Here is the load data:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/load_data_TCM.pdf


It includes data for 357 mag, 41 mag and 45 Colt.

 

[Rule3]

Here is a site discussing loads all the way down to 33gr: http://www.keystoneweapon.com/TCM.html

Here's another great page discussing the similarities to .22 Hornet: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/handload-22-tcm/ They specifically mention that a 35-grain Hornady V-Max is likely suitable.

I see a lot of load data using 2400, AA#9 and Lil Gun among others. That offers safer options for downloading.

In a bottleneck you wouldn't necessarily have to seat at the cannelure, but I understand it may be more complex than that. In fact, that's part of my reasoning for not loading 5.7x28mm. In any event, as far as I can tell the issue of the lighter, deeper-seated bullet only applies if you are trying to get the cartridge to fit in the Glock conversion - specifically the magazine. Obviously the RIA 1911 is built for it and handles it well - reports are that in the 1911 you can load the COL out to 1.275.

I imagine it won't take too long for another loading manual to come out with something on the .22 TCM.

Again, those are for the 22 TCM which there is data out there, NOT the 22 TCM9R

The guy in the video is just talking not providing anything.

 

[Havok7416]

Again, those are for the 22 TCM which there is data out there, NOT the 22 TCM9R

The guy in the video is just talking not providing anything.

I understand that. Load data can still be worked up for the 9R using this data however. The only reason data is available in such quantity is because of experimentation.

The TCM powder looks nice, now if only I can track some down.

 

[fxvr5]

The TCM powder looks nice, now if only I can track some down.

It is at Powder Valley, Grafs and Midway.

 

[drband]

It looks very doable. I have a mid size 22TCM/9mm combo and would like to reload for it.
As a 9mm it’s a fine pistol. As a 22TCM it is a BLAST to shoot, accurate and totally fun!

With all that said, I would be interested in real user experiences using the Lee dies and the Hornady dies and any comparisons between the two. Lee’s 22TCM dies are less expensive— would I be giving up anything using the Lee dies over the Hornady dies?

Thus far I am reloading .380acp, 9mm, .45acp, and .44magnum. Reloading a bottle-neck cartridge would be a new experience for me.

Thanks!

 

[Walkalong]

I've been tempted by the RIA single stack 9MM/.22 TCM, but am worried I would buy it, shoot it, think, yea that's cool, then have it sit around and not get shot much. Might fall in love with it though. Never know. Just haven't wanted it bad enough to spend the money.

 

[Rule3]

I understand that. Load data can still be worked up for the 9R using this data however. The only reason data is available in such quantity is because of experimentation.

The TCM powder looks nice, now if only I can track some down.

Looking at the picture of the 40gr and 39 gr bullet here in this article:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/gear-accessories/review-ria-22-tcm-conversion-kits/

I myself would not want to be the "Poster Boy" of shovng that 40 gr bullet down so far into a small case. It looks like it would be right at the ogive. Seems a whole lot of reduced case space (pressure) and additional friction (neck tension) Would not know how to extrapolate all that.

Just a WAG could lead to major failure!

I nominate you to do the ground work!

 

[dr3d]

I do shoot/load 22TCM. It is a blast, but I don't use it defensively. Why not? Cause it booms like 5.56 - first time indoors I had to put it away 'cause the lady learning to shoot in the next lane could NOT avoid flinching when I pulled my trigger. First shot she actually squealed.

Regarding the 9R: a lack of appropriate and available bullets make it substantially less hand loader friendly. Plenty of discussion at 22tcm.net, but I'm not aware of anyone successfully loading a round that functions in a 9mm magazine.

 

[drband]

I do shoot/load 22TCM. It is a blast, but I don't use it defensively. Why not? Cause it booms like 5.56 - first time indoors I had to put it away 'cause the lady learning to shoot in the next lane could NOT avoid flinching when I pulled my trigger. First shot she actually squealed.

Regarding the 9R: a lack of appropriate and available bullets make it substantially less hand loader friendly. Plenty of discussion at 22tcm.net, but I'm not aware of anyone successfully loading a round that functions in a 9mm magazine.

Which dies do you use?

 

[Havok7416]

Looking at the picture of the 40gr and 39 gr bullet here in this article:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/gear-accessories/review-ria-22-tcm-conversion-kits/

I myself would not want to be the "Poster Boy" of shovng that 40 gr bullet down so far into a small case. It looks like it would be right at the ogive. Seems a whole lot of reduced case space (pressure) and additional friction (neck tension) Would not know how to extrapolate all that.

Just a WAG could lead to major failure!

I nominate you to do the ground work!

I would cheerfully do so, but if I get one of these, it will be the MAPP.

 

[Havok7416]

Well this certainly started off as a must-have project, but after some thinking, I can't justify adding this cartridge. Brass, tiny bullets, extra powders (I'm trying to consolidate those), more dies on the bench. On top of that I'm already invested in the 5.7x28 and I think I'd regret selling that pistol.

 

[Rule3]

Well this certainly started off as a must-have project, but after some thinking, I can't justify adding this cartridge. Brass, tiny bullets, extra powders (I'm trying to consolidate those), more dies on the bench. On top of that I'm already invested in the 5.7x28 and I think I'd regret selling that pistol.

Oh no, no no. You were nominated!

I searched and searched an can not find a bullet even close to that odd ball 39 gr R9 bullet. The 40 Grain TCM bullet can be found or similar.

What I still can not grasp is how the regular 22TCM/9mm version of the 1911"s (in a 9mm format) magazines can hold the 22 TCM (40) and have a included 9mm barrel but the MAPP series and 9mm conversions can only shoot the shortened bullet??

 

[Havok7416]

Oh no, no no. You were nominated!

I searched and searched an can not find a bullet even close to that odd ball 39 gr R9 bullet. The 40 Grain TCM bullet can be found or similar.

What I still can not grasp is how the regular 22TCM/9mm version of the 1911"s (in a 9mm format) magazines can hold the 22 TCM (40) and have a included 9mm barrel but the MAPP series and 9mm conversions can only shoot the shortened bullet??

The only thing I can think of is the angle of the round as it sits in the mag. I have 10mm 1911 mags and the bullets seem to stick up at a more severe angle than my .45 1911 mags. That may provide slightly more room.

Years ago i owned a couple Glocks. IIRC the mags were fairly tight inside, but I don't have any to check now.

I do have some range pickup .22TCM brass laying around though....

 

[fxvr5]

The 1911 magazines can hold a round the length of a 38 Super, and the 22 TCM is long like a 38 Super. The 22 TCM is too long to fit in a 9mm-length magazine/frame.

The 22 TCM9R is short like a 9mm, and will fit in a 9mm-length magazine/frame.

This is explained in the previously cited article http://www.shootingtimes.com/gear-accessories/review-ria-22-tcm-conversion-kits/

 

[Havok7416]

But the regular round will work in a 9mm 1911. The real problem is in magazines that are too tight, such as Glocks. It would likely fit in something like a USP mag. I'll measure some of my 9mm mags later to see if this is correct.
From the same article, the 40 grain bullets weigh about 39.9 with 9.9g powder and the 39 grain 39.2 with 9.7g powder. Velocity is about 200 fps (listed) different From one load to the other. In other words, there is a difference but it isn't huge. The only numbers we don't have are pressure, which would be the limiting factor. Perhaps someone with Quickloads could help out with that.

 

[fxvr5]

Western load data shows pressures in the 38,xxx range.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I'm not so sure how long the .22TCM will be around.
After a flurry of activity surrounding its release, Armscor doesn't seem to be able to maintain ammo and component supply.

I don't have a TCM, but do have a .22 Hornet and .218Bee I had begun feeding the 40gr rnhp bullets used in the .22TCM. Though not quite as accurate as a Sierra bullet, at 1/2 the price I found them preferred.
Both my Ruger 77/22Hornet and Marlin 1894CL shoot them into 1.5" or less (100yds 5-shots) and achieve similar or better velocity than the TCM.
Grafs had the bullets for ~$70/1,000 shipped, and I got 1,000 after trying 100.

Subsequently Grafs has sold out and have been out for nearly a year. They only recently received more brass and ammo.

If Savage would chamber it in the Mod25, and HighPoint in its Carbine, and other manufacturers pick up ammo and bullets, it might survive, but I won't be holding my breath.