OK...what can/cant I do?

[PCRCCW]

Im not a gunsmith and dont even play one on TV But I play with all of my guns....sometimes very extensively.

If I wanted to work on someone elses gun and didnt charge them for it is this ok? What if it was limited to frame work........shaping, etc.
NO TRIGGER/MECHANICAL WORK!

Or am I just asking for trouble and Im screwed!

shoot well and thanks.................

 

[Jim K]

Technically, to need a license, you have to gain some part of your income from the work. Many people do small jobs for friends, without taking money or other valuables, and there is never a problem. I doubt very much that BATFE agents lay awake thinking of how to "get" some guy who fixed a friend's gun; they have a lot bigger concerns than that.

But when this issue is raised, some voices always warn about being sued, losing your property, going to jail, etc. I consider those concerns a bit overblown, but not entirely invalid.

So, I think it would depend on what you do and how good a friend the person is. One out is to tell him what to do, and watch him do it. In other words, this is not really an answer at all.

Jim

 

[P95Carry]

I think Jim is dead on .... but would add ..... in this litigious day and age ... if you do some work for someone ..... and to all intents do not get paid .. as per business .. then all should be fine but ... seems a good idea to write out and have the person sign a disclaimer ...

''Work carried out has been done in good faith but any liability is herewith withdrawn following inspection, acceptance and receipt back into possession of said item'' ...... well, something like that!! I ain't no lawyer!!

 

[Old Fuff]

>> What if it was limited to frame work........shaping, etc. <<

A lot might depend on what you mean by this. Do you mean refinishing wood or metal parts, or something more?

 

[1911Tuner]

Lotta Gray Area

...in this neighborhood. About all I would add is this:

If you (the hobby smith) accept a gun that the owner wants to
leave with you and come back the next day, he has in effect,
transferred that gun to you without the background check. He
has violated the law. When he comes back to get it 24 hours later, and you give it to him, you have transferred a gun to him without the
background check.

25 years ago, it wouldn't have been a problem. I can remember carrying
out private transactions in gun show parking lots, often with the town constable or the county sheriff without a problem. Today? Well, it's
a little different America today, and those wonderful times are pretty much history, I'm afraid. If the person is a close friend or relative, I'd say that there likely wouldn't be a problem, even if it were discovered by
authorities, assuming that neither of you is barred from owning or
possessing a gun.

A casual aquaintance or stranger? Best to err on the side of caution here
and tell him no. I have to do that a lot since I let my FFL lapse, as much
as I would like to lend a hand with a simple problem. People that I don't
know well enough to vouch for, I suggest leaving the pistol at a local
pawn shop so that I can go work on it under their FFL, where I do light
repairs on a contractual basis. When I walk in the door and pick up a gun,
I'm on the clock, and everything is legal, even if I have to bring the gun home. If a guy doesn't want to go that route, and insists that "It will
be okay, I won't say anything"...I get suspicious and end the conversation.
Paranoia? Maybe...but a little paranoia is good.

Best,

Tuner

 

[Jammer Six]

One of your friends gives you his weapon, and you work on it. You don't charge him anything, or he takes you to dinner.

Then your friend's son finds his weapon, and it goes off.

Note that your friend's son had nothing to do with your transaction.

The bullet hits my wife, and kills her.

Note that she didn't have anything to do with your transaction, either.

As soon as my lawyer finds out that you worked on that weapon, you belong to me.

Nothing your friend signs will protect you, because you don't have his son's signature.

And you sure as hell won't have mine.

Even if you win, you will loose.

There's only one way to work on other people's weapons without fear of liability, because no one, not you, not your friend and not my wife, can predict what will happen with that weapon in the future.

That way is exactly according to the law, with the correct licenses and insurance.

 

[1911Tuner]

Jammer's Observations

Just another scenario of how things can turn around and bite us on the
butt. In this day of litigation, you can be successfully sued by anybody for about anything. Witness the suit filed against MacDonalds for selling coffee
that was too hot. Or the alcoholic who sues the distiller for making the liquor and selling it. The 3 pack a day smoker who, after using tobacco for 30 years, decides that it wasn't really his fault, and sues the tobacco company. The driver who buys a Corvette, pushes it to 140 MPH, crashes, survives as a paraplegic, and sues General Motors for building such a fast car. The list could go on.

The ugly truth is, that even a licensed gunsmith isn't immune to this sort of
nonsense that is beyond his control. Many of them don't carry malpractice
insurance...and even if the lawsuit isn't successful, the cost of defending
against it can be a financial nightmare from which he may never recover.

It's a sad commentary that, in this Age of the Wimp, nobody is responsible
for their actions or negligent behavior. It MUST be somebody else's fault,
and whomever that may be has to pay. Finding who has the most money
often determines who is "at fault"...and so it goes.

Now, you'll have to excuse me. I have to go plan an action against Al
Gore for inventing the internet. I've spent so much time at the PC that I've
neglected to exercise and my legs have grown weak...My eyesight is getting blurred from staring into the monitor, and I have Carpal Tunnel
Syndrome from all the typing. Man, is he ever gonna pay for this!

Go ahead. Flame me! I need the money...

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[PCRCCW]

Thanks for the advice and points are all well taken.

As far as the mechanicals / trigger/ action work goes.........NOPE! The liability of its not worth it to me.......thats why I say.....reshaping of frames, melting, strap work etc.

IMO, if I stuck to this and didnt charge for it I honestly think Id be fine.

In UT I can do Private Party Transfers all day long without an FFL as long as its with another UT resident.

Just thinking out loud......Im still not convinced Id want to do it.....especially for free................

Shoot well........

 

[stans]

I no longer work on anybody else's guns. The last thing I did, several years ago, was install a King's ambidextrous thumb safety on a friend's 1911. I spent a fair amount of time getting it right, never charged a penny for any of my work, and have not received any complaints. Since I am not a professional gunsmith, I would not do anything other than offer advice, and I am careful about that too, to someone else.

Years ago, I had friends ask me to reload ammo for them. I refused this request also due to the potental liability.

 

[only1asterisk]

PCRCCW,

While everyone that has posted here has raised valid concerns, I think you may have talent worth exploring. Post a few more pictures like the ones on the other thread and I'd send you the slide off my STI to dehorn. The old gunsmiths are dying off and too many new people are afraid to take up the calling. I hope you will give some serious consideration to the idea. Look into the idea some more, you may regret it later if you don't.

Just an opinion from a guy who isn't assuming any of your liability.


David

 

[Jammer Six]

IMO, if I stuck to this and didnt charge for it I honestly think Id be fine

Actually, if you don't charge, I can twist that around to demonstrate that not only did you not know what you were doing, but you KNEW you didn't know what you were doing.

"Your Honor, if he were competent, what he did would have had value. Since he didn't charge, we can only assume that what he did had no value, and the reason it had no value was because all parties were well aware that he wasn't competent to work on this weapon."

To turn this issue around, assuming that you know how to work on weapons, why on earth WOULDN'T you obtain the correct licenses and insurance, comply with the spirit of all laws, and take advantage of all the protection, rights and privileges those things would entitle you to? I don't know you, but I assume you would never take shortcuts or make compromises in the work itself, why would you compromise on your own protection?

I'm a general contractor, one of the most litiguous businesses there is. There's no question in my mind that competence is the best defense against lawsuits.

That said, the reason I bring my background up is to say this: the people who would ask you to go "off the record" or "under the radar" are precisely the people that nightmares are made of. They are not customers, they are trouble.

They are easy to identify, they ask for shortcuts, either in the work itself, or in the structure of the deal, they ask to avoid taxes, all in pursuit of some tiny amount of savings.

Customers, on the other hand, are happy to do business with a professional, in a professional manner, and expect to pay a price that will enable the professional to make a profit, remain in business, and keep his/her liscenses, insurance, and equipment in top form.

Just out of curiosisty, how much money are we talking about here? What is the amount that you are willing to take such a risk for? How much will you really save your friend?

And finally, please don't misconstrue my comments as criticism.

On the contrary, consider what I'm saying encouragement. The hard part is the skill, not the paperwork.

Go get your license. Get the insurance. Set up your shop.

Start your business, and build it correctly, from the ground up.

We need more real, honest to god gunsmiths.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Exactly what license are we talking about here? As far as I know (and I'll check my red book,) there's no federal license for gunsmiths.

- Chris

 

[stans]

Business licenses are usually required if you are providing goods and/or services in exchange for money.

 

[1911Tuner]

License?

Chris asked:

Exactly what license are we talking about here?

A Federal Firearms License. (Dealer's FFL)

 

[HankB]

If you (the hobby smith) accept a gun that the owner wants to
leave with you and come back the next day, he has in effect,
transferred that gun to you without the background check. He
has violated the law

No.

As this is stated, you're not in trouble unless you live in one of those commie states that has outlawed private transactions. It's just a simple private transfer. Ditto for when you return it. Loaning a gun to a friend - assuming he isn't a convicted felon or something - is still OK most places. Do this sort of thing rarely, and you're OK from a transfer standpoint.

Now, if you're doing this a lot, an argument can be made that you're "engaging in the business" or "dealing firearms without a license" which can cause you problems. And "doing this a lot" isn't really defined, AFAIK. And if you advertise - even just by word of mouth - you may end up in deep you-know-what.

My take on this - if you're going to be doing this enough to make it financially worthwhile, jump through the hoops and get a license, insurance, etc. If you're NOT going to be making noticeable $$$ from this . . . the potential liability issues just aren't worth it. ESPECIALLY if you're doing "a little work" for a stranger. (FWIW, I've declined requests for handloaded ammo from others . . . and I sure won't do even the "light" gunsmithing I've carried out on my own guns for anyone else.)

 

[1911Tuner]

Okay to Transfer

HankB said:

As this is stated, you're not in trouble unless you live in one of those commie states that has outlawed private transactions. It's just a simple private transfer.

LOL hank. You're quick. I deleted that part of my reply soon after I posted it, 'cause I knew it would draw fire.

Yeah, that's true enough if the LEO that slips in under your radar is local.
If a Fed does it, I wouldn't bet too heavily on it being okay. That they
turned a deaf ear/blind eye for so many years doesn't mean that they
will now. 25 years ago, it was a different country. No, I don't believe
that there are AFT agents sitting around a table in a war room planning to
set up a sting for hobby gunsmiths...but if word gets around, one may strike out on his own. If an unhappy client should turn you in, you may
be approached about doing some work.

If you don't know the customer, best to say no. If Randy Weaver had
stuck to his guns, his wife, son and one U.S. Marshal would probably
still be alive. Anybody that I don't know who approaches me, I direct'em
to leave the gun at the local pawnshop, and I go have a look at it. I'm
covered. My next-door neighbor needs a mainspring or a little throat
work done...Sure. My stepson or my new husband-in-law? Sure. A guy
that I've run into at the range a couple of times in the past year? Not
a chance.

Let's be careful out there now...Hear?

Tuner

 

[HankB]

1911Tuner - reviewing our last posts, it looks like we're very much in agreement, we just used different words to express similar opinions. I guess great minds think alike.

(Of course, the corollary is that fools never differ . . . but let's not go there. )

 

[1911Tuner]

Fools

HankB said:

(Of course, the corollary is that fools never differ . . . but let's not go there.

ROFL

Agreed!