Old 22-250 Reloads

[Shovel]

I went hiding from further honey-dos this afternoon and thought I'd take a look at what kind of 22-250 reloads were passed down to me. Have 4 boxes of old Norma brass loaded up with 55 gr spitzers in front of 33.5 gr of 4320 - looks ok by my old Sierra book. Also have 5 boxes of 250 Savage brass that was resized to 22-250 and these were marked varying from 45 Gr spitzers w/33.1 gr 4320 and a ladder of 55 gr spitzers running from 33.5 to 37 (!!) gr of 4320.

All the Norma cases looked like they had their necks set back hard on the shoulders - look shootable, though. If I go ahead and plink these off I can see what can be done in rehabbing the cases (annealing, resize, neck turn... the usual rainy day stuff).

What's interesting and has me wondering about the stability of the 4320 powder is that every one of 5 boxes of the resized Remington 250 Savage cases have split necks with signs of powder deterioration seeping out from cracks. One case broke in my hand when I went to clean the neck area with some steel wool.

So - pull 'em all down (Norma and Remington), get scrap value for the Rem cases and a handful of bullets, reload the Norma's with fresh powder and then go plinking? I'm leaning toward as safe as possible and will probably go this way. I do have a few hundred new Remington 22-250 cases so wouldn't be too heartbroken over losing the Norma stuff.

But - anyone ever see work-hardened brass age crack like this? Perhaps its stress-corrosion cracking from the powder....

 

[mkl]

Pull the bullets and save for "plinking" loads. Tumble or clean them somehow and toss the ones that don't look good. Throw away all the other stuff -- brass,powder,etc. The bullets will most probably be use-able but don't expect competition accuracy out of them.

 

[Ifishsum]

I wouldn't try to salvage anything from the whole lot except maybe the bullets. Even if the Norma brass isn't showing the same obvious damage as the Remington, it's the same powder and seems likely enough to be around the same age and even if the deterioration isn't externally obvious I bet it's inside those cases also.

 

[Blue68f100]

Those are toast. You may be able to save the bullets and maybe primers.

 

[lordpaxman]

So - pull 'em all down (Norma and Remington), get scrap value for the Rem cases and a handful of bullets, reload the Norma's with fresh powder and then go plinking? I'm leaning toward as safe as possible and will probably go this way. I do have a few hundred new Remington 22-250 cases so wouldn't be too heartbroken over losing the Norma stuff.

Those broken cases are scary - pull them all. Even the Norma, I’d wonder if it would chamber. Your “new” cases in the picture, are you sure they’re .22-250, or, are they 250 Savage? That’s what the box says.

RMR has primed cases on sale right now if you want.

 

[Shovel]

Those broken cases are scary - pull them all. Even the Norma, I’d wonder if it would chamber. Your “new” cases in the picture, are you sure they’re .22-250, or, are they 250 Savage? That’s what the box says.

RMR has primed cases on sale right now if you want.

The photos are of boxes of 1983 vintage reloads. The 22-250 is a 250 Savage case necked down to .22 caliber. I'm thinking whoever resized the brass didn't anneal or turn the necks. Swaging the brass from 25 down to 22 caliber would have left the necks considerably thicker resulting in a lot of neck stress when the bullet was seated.

The Norma cases were 22-250 from the factory so the neck stress wouldn't be as much of an issue. I'll pull some down and check for powder deterioration. Being a cheap old guy I hate the thought of scrapping almost a pound of powder, but I didn't get to be an old guy by not being safe!

 

[.45Coltguy]

I wouldn't trust any of those. Why chance it?

 

[tmd16556]

I had some 257 Roberts reloads like that from the late 1930s that were similar with corrosion. Neck splits were similar too. Those all got pulled. The bullets might load again but the brass was a loss. (Although I can’t figure out what I did with it, since I don’t usually toss that sort of thing.).

 

[GooseGestapo]

The powder is deteriorated!

Firing those could destroy your rifle!

I’ve got almost 3lbs of IMR4320 but it’s spent the last 16yrs in an old Maytag Refrigerator in the basement for powder storage. It’s set to around 48deg and seldom runs… but keeps powder cool!
It’s splendid it the “old school cartridges”.
.22-250, .257Roberts, .25/06, .270, .30/06, ESPECIALLY the .338/06 and .35Whelen…
Bent a few M1 op-rods I’m told, too!

 

[splattergun]

I'm thinking whoever resized the brass didn't anneal or turn the necks.

I didn't get to be an old guy by not being safe!

So, you don't know who loaded these? Keep the bullets, primers too if you can, then fertilize the garden with the powder and sell the brass for scrap. Live awhile longer.

 

[gunmechanic]

It is not worth the chance, but i would save the old boxs they are nice!

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I went hiding from further honey-dos this afternoon and thought I'd take a look at what kind of 22-250 reloads were passed down to me. Have 4 boxes of old Norma brass loaded up with 55 gr spitzers in front of 33.5 gr of 4320 - looks ok by my old Sierra book. Also have 5 boxes of 250 Savage brass that was resized to 22-250 and these were marked varying from 45 Gr spitzers w/33.1 gr 4320 and a ladder of 55 gr spitzers running from 33.5 to 37 (!!) gr of 4320.

All the Norma cases looked like they had their necks set back hard on the shoulders - look shootable, though. If I go ahead and plink these off I can see what can be done in rehabbing the cases (annealing, resize, neck turn... the usual rainy day stuff).

What's interesting and has me wondering about the stability of the 4320 powder is that every one of 5 boxes of the resized Remington 250 Savage cases have split necks with signs of powder deterioration seeping out from cracks. One case broke in my hand when I went to clean the neck area with some steel wool.

So - pull 'em all down (Norma and Remington), get scrap value for the Rem cases and a handful of bullets, reload the Norma's with fresh powder and then go plinking? I'm leaning toward as safe as possible and will probably go this way. I do have a few hundred new Remington 22-250 cases so wouldn't be too heartbroken over losing the Norma stuff.

But - anyone ever see work-hardened brass age crack like this? Perhaps its stress-corrosion cracking from the powder....View attachment 1138133 View attachment 1138134 View attachment 1138136 View attachment 1138137 View attachment 1138138 View attachment 1138139

That seems like bad powder to me, I have no real experience with seeing this first hand, but I would pull the bullets, and de prime the brass and toss the brass and powder. Keep the primers though!

 

[wanderinwalker]

I only popped in here to say DO NOT USE any of those loads, even if they're visually OK on the outside. That powder is definitely kaput. I've disposed, with prejudice, lots of yucky old rounds that were in better condition than yours and I still wouldn't have trusted them to not blow up a firearm. But those old Remington boxes are cool; I think they're 1950s vintage, maybe early 60s.

Also, paging @Slamfire

 

[.45Coltguy]

I only popped in here to say DO NOT USE any of those loads, even if they're visually OK on the outside. That powder is definitely kaput. I've disposed, with prejudice, lots of yucky old rounds that were in better condition than yours and I still wouldn't have trusted them to not blow up a firearm. But those old Remington boxes are cool; I think they're 1950s vintage, maybe early 60s.

Also, paging @Slamfire

I would think that the bad powder would contaminate the primers also over time. I'd toss everything and keep boxes like wanderinwalker mentioned.

 

[.38 Special]

Yes, I inherited a bunch of .228 Ackley handloads, made with necked-down 7x57 cases most likely in the 1950s or 60s. They were essentially identical to the OP's photos. I reused the bullets. The rest was trash.

 

[tmd16556]

I did manage to re use my degraded powder. It worked quite nicely to help start the fire pit with some slightly wet firewood.

 

[Slamfire]

I only popped in here to say DO NOT USE any of those loads, even if they're visually OK on the outside. That powder is definitely kaput. I've disposed, with prejudice, lots of yucky old rounds that were in better condition than yours and I still wouldn't have trusted them to not blow up a firearm. But those old Remington boxes are cool; I think they're 1950s vintage, maybe early 60s.

Also, paging @Slamfire

Lets see if @Jeremy2171 could use them. He believes that gunpowder looses its fizz over time. Like soda pop. Maybe if given enough old ammunition and gunpowder, he will shoot the stuff, and tell us how it performs. What data I have posted shows a pressure rise over time. I have shot old military ammunition and experienced high pressure indications, and that was before I was told that old gunpowder is dangerous as the burn rate becomes unstable. Since then, found and posted accounts of old deteriorated gunpowder detonating and blowing guns all to hell. But of course, an alternate opinion, from someone who will actually shoot the stuff, would be enlightening.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Seems like we covered this already but I'm sure you're eager to ramble on again.

Yes the gunpowder has deteriorated as the stabilizers are now gone and the powder is chemically consuming itself for energy and the byproduct of this is acids which attack the case walls and also further breakdown of the powder. This is also off gassing and the acids are settling on the other cases and attacking them as well. Think of the one rotten apple in the bunch turning the rest bad. Similar analogy.

If gunpowder is decomposing and consuming itself then it no longer has the chemical energy to produce the velocity/pressure it was loaded to originally.

Gunpowder in ammunition weakens as it decomposes..thats a fact.

 

[tmd16556]

The problem is both arguments can be right. From a thermodynamic perspective, it does lose energy by decomposing. The problem is how it affects peak pressure in the chamber. Decomposing burn rate inhibitors will make a slow burner peak high and burn out fast. Others may peak lower and not be a problem.

I don’t know which is which on old ammo enough to experiment with my face.

 

[Slamfire]

The problem is both arguments can be right. From a thermodynamic perspective, it does lose energy by decomposing. The problem is how it affects peak pressure in the chamber. Decomposing burn rate inhibitors will make a slow burner peak high and burn out fast. Others may peak lower and not be a problem.

I don’t know which is which on old ammo enough to experiment with my face.

Good point. When gun powder deteriorates to the point that its burn rate becomes unstable, that's when the pressure curve increases and the occasion detonation happens. It is not about total energy, its about pressure curve.

In another thread, I posted you tube videos of coal dust explosions. Surely coal has a much slower burn rate than smokeless gunpowder, if it were not, coal would be inside our cartridge cases instead of nitrocellulose. Coal is regularly shoveled into stoves, boilers, furnaces. However, grind it down to a dust and under the right conditions, coal dust explodes. It is not about controlling the energy content, it is all about controlling the burn rate. Just google the deflagration to detonation transition DDT and see just how great a concern this is with substances that contain carbon. And this includes gunpowder. I found a number of papers from investigators in improvised munitions. Home terrorists build improvised bombs using gunpowder all the time, and if the device detonates instead of deflagrates, the kill radius increases.

Incidentally, Jeremy has no idea how to quantify how stabilizers affect the pressure curve, nor how much total energy they bring to combustion. He is just babbling terms he does not intrinsically understand to construct his psuedo science.

I think if we can create a GoKaboome fund for Jeremy, that is send him all the old deteriorated ammunition and gunpowder that members find in their cupboards, and he shoots it, maybe something interesting will happen.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Oh boy ....whats next ....we are going to talk about the USS Iowa again??? Rheinmetal trying to sell a new gunpowder? I'm just waiting on your next wall of preprepared cut and paste of random photos grabbed off the net...