old .44 special black powder remington ctgs

[grendelbane]

This thread has been quite interesting. What I find fascinating is that they made a cartridge with jacketed bullets loaded over black powder. That they did this with the .32 Winchester Special is no big surprize, but it does seem like an unnecessary expense on a revolver cartridge.

I actually loaded and fired .44 Special with black powder, in a Charter Arms Bulldog. The chronograph said the 240 grain bullets were going 650 fps. With the reduced capacity of modern solid head cases and the 3" barrel I thought this was pretty good performance.

The old folded head cases could still be found for sale as empty brass at gun shows in the 80s. (Don't ask me how I know! ).

Don't ask how long it takes to clean a Charter Arms Bulldog after you have fired black powder loads in it.

 

[Gewehr98]

Grendelbane, I know what you mean.

I've got several hundred of those old balloon-head .44 Special cases. I've already loaded a couple dozen of them, using FFFg, a WonderWad, and a .433" round ball intended for BP front-stuffers. I fired them in my stainless 696, and was pleasantly surprised by how well they grouped at 10 yards. Cleanup, on the other hand, wasn't a whole lot of fun. I ended up removing the cylinder and crane from the 696's frame, that BP soot gets everywhere!

 

[BluesBear]

It was actually very easy to find balloon head cases throughout the 1980s.

I bought 200 WRA Co. balloon head cases in .45 Auto Rim along with 300 factory loaded rounds still in their original boxes in the mid 80s. The loaded rounds were FMJ as well.

I just looked and even though those AR cases are long gone, I still have some REM-UMC .44 Special balloon heads left. While my similar era "W R A 44 S&W SPL" headstamped ones are all solid head.

 

[unspellable]

BP 44 Special loads

If you guys are gonna stuff your 44 Special cases with black, be aware that the brand can make a substantial difference with Goex being the weak sister in the crowd. Swiss produces noticably higher velocities than Goex.

The important difference from one brand to the next is the variety of charcoal used. The "impurities" in the charcoal have a significant effect with some apparently acting as catalysts. BP made with purifed carbon powder isn't worth a plugged nickle.

 

[BluesBear]

What a co-inkey-dink

After my physical therapy Thursday afternoon, Lady45 & I stopped my the grocery on our way home.

While she walked up and down the aisles I of couse hobbled over to the magazine rack. (I say hobble because today I mey Satan and he was disguised as a 4'10" female Asian Physical Therapist)

There on the rack was a single copy of the April 2005 Handloader magazine.
Which I was compelled to buy because lo and behold there on page 24, in an article by Mike Venturino, is a photograph of a bpx of cartridges labeled,
"20 Caliber .45 Revolver Ball Cartridges, Model of 1909."
"For COLT'S DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVER, Model of 1909."
"Smokless Powder"
"Muzzle velocity 725 + 25 feet per second"
"R.S.Q. Lot No. 4, of 1913"
"Manufactured at FRANKFORD ARSENAL"
"Class 47, Division 1, Drawing 3."


Then over on page 26 is a photograph of four different .45 caliber cartridges showing their headstamps and rim sizes. The first is a .45 Colt 1909 headstamped F A 4 11, the second is a headstamped WRA Co 45 COLT, the third is headstamped REM-UMC 45 S&W and the fourth is headstamped REM-UMC 45 COLT.
The 1909 hasd a noticibly larger rim than any of the others and also shows that a small primer was used. The .45 S&W also used a small primer and the rim diameter is slightly smaller than the 1909 but much larger than the WRA.

Venturino reports that the rim diameter of the FA 4 11 round is .537" with a body (just ahead of the rim) diameter of .477"
as opposed to an 1874 vintage .45 cartridge with a .502" rim and .480" body.
The .45 S&W mentioned above has a rim of .521" and a body of .477".
The WRA Co mentioned above has a .503" rim and a .478" body.

He also measured four brands of modern .45 Colt ammo and found a rim diameters of .507"/.508" and a bodies of .475"/.476".

 

[bfoster]

Here's a pic of a box of ball, M1909.

The box is marked "EL 46 JUN 5 1913"

RSQ's characteristics are described in Sharpe's Complete Giude to Handloading, it was a very bulky smokeless powder designed to minimize the chance of a double charge in this cartridge.

Bob

 

[BluesBear]

Thanks for the photo bfoster.

Looks like your mic says .538".

Is the cartridge headstamp F A 3 11 ?

 

[bfoster]

The headstamp on 29 pf the 30 cartridges is FA 5 13.

The headstamp on the "odd" cartridge is FA 4 11.

The cases appear to use small pistol primers, but this could be an illusion caused by the use of the typical "tar" sealant and a rounded primer face.

Bob

 

[BluesBear]

Yes the 1909 round did indeed use a small primer.

It appears that the box is not original to the ammunition. But it's still a cool piece of history.

 

[Gewehr98]

I picked up the same issue of Handloader.

Good to see that the "not-so-long" Colt .45 was indeed a reality, and now out there in the open.

There's also a nice article about the .32 Remington round. He should've added load data, but that's okay. It was half the fun coming up with my own to cycle the Remington Model 8.

 

[unspellable]

32 Remington

Gewehr98,

Is your 32 Remington the rimless version of the Winchester 32 Special?

I know that Remington once had a rimless version of the 32 Special. In the obsolete category today. But if you want hard to find load data for an obsolete cartridge you should try my 400-360!

 

[Gewehr98]

Yup. A rimless .32 Winchester Special.

As intended by Remington to feed through their newfangled autoloading rifle.

But that's a discussion for a different thread - lest this one gets overtaken by veer. (Guilty as charged)