Old Cartridge load-Black Powder

Status
Not open for further replies.
When loading black powder in modern cartridge cases keep in mind that the old balloon head cases used during the 19th and first half of the 20th centuries were different. Current cases have thicker solid heads, where the older ones were made with thinner folded heads. Because of this they were weaker, but could hold more powder.

Black powder should be slightly compressed by the bullet, which means there must not be any air space between the powder charge and bullet or ball. But when measured by volume a full charge in a modern case won’t be equal to one in an older one. So in .45 Colt for example, don’t try to duplicate the Remington Bridgeport load of 40 grains topped with a 255 grain bullet. It can be done, but you’ll have to seat the bullet out further and be over standard cartridge overall length.
 
reload them your own. Just as i stated earlier and OLD FUFF dit as well its not hard at all. You dont need special dies. You can use the same primers, Get some dies, Heck a lee loader works well too. Then size the cases. fill the case with enough powder then some to compress lightly with a bullet. trick is getting the powder right so that you seat the bullet at the right height. You can almost eye ball where it needs to be powder wise. Just put a tad more as you can not have an air gap. Then seat the bullet to the depth. Thats it. Now what i did was once i figured out the correct height of the powder. i poured it out and matched it to a lee dipper. So now i can quickly load them up. You can make a quick dipper by taking an old case then filing it down to where it will hold just the right amount of powder.
 
quote: Old Cartridge load-Black Powder
Hi guys, I have three old break tops from my Grandfather and have been told the original loads were black powder.
.32 S&W Short & .38 S&W.
Where can I find a box of each loaded with the recommended black powder?
I don't care to shoot these much but would like to toss a few rounds down range for old times sake.
Yes, the guns are in excellent condition and timed and locking up great.
Thanks.
Gary


this is a very old thread but worth reviving, I have recently dissected a few 38SW rounds that were blackpowder factory loads, they had between 10 to 12 grains of 3F blackpowder in them. Just enough to fill the case to the bottom of the bullet. They had 126 grain and 146 grain soft lead bullets in them, and were loaded by Remington-UMC.

what I find odd is, there were many replies but not a single one answering what the OP asked. Lots of replies about how to load cap/ball revolvers, and how smokeless powder burns different than BP, but that has nothing to do with top break 32SW and 38SW chambered pistols.

I own 5 vintage 38SW and 32SW top break pistols, and have some first hand experience with them. I also have a quantity of 32SW and 38SW original factory ammo that is blackpowder loaded and will dissect them next and post the answer.

if you reload for a top break pistol using modern smokeless powder, the old Lyman reloading manual states that you should not exceed their "starting loads" for smokeless powder.
A good rule of thumb is for smokeless pistol powder is, 2 grains maximum powder charge for the 38SW, and 1 grain maximum for the 32SW.

but if you are loading them with blackpowder, you can fill the case with 3F and compress it with the bullet and it should be just fine. The pistols are certainly strong enough to withstand blackpowder compressed loads, being they are very low pressure and velocity.

use CAST LEAD bullets. I would not recommend hard copper jacketed bullets in a top break pistol, as the bullet friction in the barrel is another factor, and can lead to stretched frames and latches.

I have dissected a modern smokeless 38SW load and it had 2.5 grains of powder behind a 146 grain soft lead bullet, I removed 1/2 grain of powder, then re-assembled the round and fired it. I wouldn't exceed 2 grains of powder just to preserve the old guns, and 2 grains of smokeless in a top break 38SW is plenty.

you could "probably" get away shooting modern smokeless factory rounds in a top break, as they were and are "loaded down" for decades now, with the old guns in mind, but just to be safe I'd reduce it to 2 grains/38 and 1 grain/32

the problem is if you get a box of factory ammo that is loaded on the hot side, it stretches the frame down by the lower hinge pin area, just below the cylinder and the gun then won't close without filing the locking lugs on the top back of the latch area, on the frame. I have also heard reports of stretched oval latch screw holes from hot handloads but have not experienced it myself.

that is the risk of overloading a top break. I don't think modern ammo will blow up a cylinder on an old SW pistol, they were of rather high quality and metallurgy- but it may eventually stretch the frame. the other cheaper saturday night special boot guns, that's another story, those may blow up a cylinder with a smokeless factory load, and I have read reports of them doing such to quite a few guys. One guy blew one up tied to a fence post firing it with a string, another guy was holding one firing by hand, next shot there were no open sights to aim with, it blew the top strap off the gun- and it was a full frame 32, but a cheapie from the 1800's.

that means is you buy modern smokeless ammo, you should shoot it in a newer stronger gun, made after the switch was done to smokeless powder, to get the empty cases to reload for an older top break- or you have to laboriously pull all the bullets and reduce the powder charges in the factory smokeless loads, and re-assemble before firing in a top break- or simply buy empty cases to reload- another option is buy old blackpowder rounds and shoot those off, then use the cases to reload for smokeless reduced charges

the way to tell a smokeless case, from a blackpowder case, is the cannelure on the case itself- a smokeless round will have a cannelure (crease) in the case, and it's there to act as bottom support for the heeled bullet when its seated. That's because there is a lot of air space in a smokeless 32SW or 38SW factory cartridge.

an old BP loaded round, will be smooth on the side of the brass- because they were usually packed full of blackpowder and the bullet compressed the powder, and the powder supported the bullet- there was no need for a cannelure. This holds true for cartridges made up to around 1940.
 
Last edited:
While you're at it, cross-section on of the black powder era cases as well as a later smokeless one. Notice the difference in the way the base is constructed. Modern cases have solid heads, and therefore hold less powder. With smokeless this doesn't matter, but if you are "loading charcoal" you may need to slightly reduce the charge.

When it comes to American top-break pocket pistols, made during the later years of the 19th and early 20th centuries there are (1) Smith & Wesson's, and (2) all the others, and the latter are unquestionably inferior. No, the Old Fuff is not a gun snob, the reason is that the others were made to sell at a price point well below the S&W, and as a consequence the quality of materials used in they're constructions suffered. At the time, steel bars used to make cylinders were made in open-hearth furnaces so bits of carbon would get into the low carbon steel. In addition, many of the bars had seams in them, made during the rolling process. The finished cylinders were not heat treated, nor were the finished revolvers proof fired until much later, and sometimes not then.

Excluding the Smith & Wesson, most if not all of them did not have a positive cylinder latching system (as do modern revolvers) so the chamber is held in alignment with the bore by nothing more then the shooter's trigger finger holding back the trigger while the hand pushes against the cylinder's ratchet.

I fully understand the desire on the part of some to put just a few rounds through great-grandpa's old pocket piece just to say they did it. And of course we have those that believe that "anything I own gets shot, because that's what they were made too do!" But on to many occasions I have had a sad-faced individual show up with an old gun (sometimes a legal antique) with a split cylinder wall or barrel that had been fired once too often.

So before you shoot, think twice.
 
well said Old Fluff, and allow me to make corrections on my previous post which I have just edited

when I weighed the BP charges of original era cartridges, I had the big sliding weight on first notch, then the small thumbwheel weight between "1" and "2"

this is a new scale I'm using first time, and I assumed the big weight notches were 5 grains each, like on my old vintage 1950's powder scale- well I just reweighed the charges and I was WRONG- the big weight notches on the new scale are 10 GRAINS per notch

so here is corrected information:

"G *" headstamped Gevelot 38 S&W ammo has 10.2 grains of 4F blackpowder
"UMC" headstamped 38 S&W ammo has 12 grains of 3F blackpowder
"S&W" headstamped 38 S&W ammo has 11.5 grains of 4F blackpowder

"REM-UMC" headstamped 38 S&W ammo has 2.5 grains of SMOKELESS powder

I checked the granulations against cans of modern 4F and 3F BP I have, and yes it appears they loaded the cartridges with 4F and 3F

and just for giggles I filled a case completely to the rim with BP 3F, then weighed the charge, looks like 15.2 grains of 3F fills a 38 S&W case
 
I have four old F&W and Leige Bulldogs. Three of them are shootable. One is .38 S&W. One is 32 S&W. The third is .380 short/.38 Short Colt.
I cast bullets for the .38 S&W and buy heeled bullets for the .32 and the .380 from GAD Custom Cartridges.
The .32 gets 8 grains of FFFg and the .38s get 11 grains.
I thumb press the bullets into the cases and give them a light crimp.
Great fun to shoot.
Pete
 
I am Shocked

The amount of miss-information in this thread is astounding ....

A one that runs a ballistic testing service , you folks need to read more ....
Actual data ...



Jabez Cowboy
 
"The usual place a Damascus shotgun barrel lets go with nitro is about 8" up the barrel where black powder has pretty much burnt out and pressure is decaying but nitro is still burning and maintaining a higher pressure at that point in time and shot charge travel."


Smokeless shotgun powder has finished decomposition before the shot cup rear clears the case.

Smokeless powder burns MUCH faster than blac, and produces far higher peak pressures.

The barrels let go further out since th epressure is stil lmuch higher there than black would generate.
 
and?

Perhaps you should enlignten us...
Click to expand...

That was what I was thinking also.

The amount of miss-information in this thread is astounding ....

A one that runs a ballistic testing service , you folks need to read more ....
Actual data ...
Click to expand...

If you are going to make that criticism....if there is misinformation for which you have the corrections, it would sure be more helpful to supply what is pertinent and proper than to snipe and say, essentially, "you guys got it all wrong".
Help out if you can. If I am really wrong about something, I am open to a fix.

Pete
 
Last edited:
I am reloading with Trail Boss to replace those Black Powder loads and having great success with it in 38 S&W, 32 H&R short and 32H&R long I might add. Hardest part is finding the lead bullets for the 32 short without casting them myself. Just remember to follow the instructions of how to figure out the max load for TB at IMR's website and reduce to start.
 
From the dreg I scoop this thread up to new light. After quite the search I stumble upon this conversation. I myself own and fire a Forehand Model of 1901 top break hammerless w/5" brl nickel-plated in a six rnd 32, 32.S&W or 32 S&W long. The cowboy style modern 32 S&W 85-88 gns loads produce 90-94 FLBS ME & 32 S&W long 98-100 gns 108-118 FLBS ME.

As a comparison the modern 22 std 40 grn CCI 102 flbs me w/36gn HP mini-mag pushing .135 flbs and slightly longer case Stinger 32 grn HP 191 flbs. Me fav 22 the CCI 27 grn HP short 73 flbs me. Sure, better steel in modern firearms, but at the same time one cannot discount lower pressure in a larger cartridge. Though still a small revolver the 1901 Forehand Hopkins & Allen six round 32 S&W and/or S&W long is approximately the same size as an I frame S&W also chambered in 32 S&W long.

The 1901 Forehand was not of S&W revolver build though more affordable. Yet, in the modest price one could not expect anywhere near the round count of the higher quality S&W wares. I believe a part of the reduced price came from the modular design of the trigger guard. Perhaps allowing cheaper manufacturing along w/faster assembly by pinning the TG instead of incorporating it into a one piece frame.

I've fired the 100gn 32 Fiocchi wad cutter 762344002019 at 118 flbs me and the 98gn LRN Magtech 32 S&W long 754908103010.at 108 flb me. The 32 WC boolits evidently are smaller in diameter as I feel no recoil whilst the LRN provide a bit of modest muzzle rise. Yet, the WC is completely encased inside the cartridge w/end crimped, so the LRN case w/more volume should be under slightly less pressure. Also w/more case the load is distributed over a greater area of the cylinder bore upon ignition. Maybe not much and whether that's enough to balance out the expanding gases that overshoot the small WC I have no idea.

For whatever reason the longer LRN seems to allow the cylinder to function a wee bit better. I tried a full cylinder of WC and when close to the end the cylinder didn't wish to rotate completely. As if not enough momentum to carry the cylinder to the cylinder stop.This led to the hand sticking betwixt the star ramps. I had to manually turn the cylinder so the hand to catch and rotate the next round. If available a nes star/extractor & hand would be in order.

Granted I was pulling the trigger on the slow side attempting to hit a target within six inches at around ten feet away. The star is worn and creeping on the trigger seems to invite the hand to jam. I possibly could've started and then inadvertently stopped at which point The arm lacked the mechanical advantage it enjoyed at first pull. Still the LRN boolit even w/slight recoil would insert through the muzzle bottoming out on the case.

I like the hammerless design in DA only. The five inch brl provides a nice feel, but this is a belly-gun designed for close quarter social engagement. The slim frame slides easily in the waistband and could be carried inside of a pull on boot w/o issue.

Mine has the old style cylinder catch though the later rounded B type trigger/TG. I'm not sure if those were interchangeable. F&W gutta stocks w/star and flag style shield. All four digit SN match and there's no letter prefix. I've seen no letter, B and C prefix four digit examples. According to research on the net H&A, after acquiring Forehand Arms, produced 40K arms a year The Montgomery Ward & Co. Catalogue and Buyers Guide 1895 lists 32 S&W ammo as # 47188. Is the 32 S&W smokeless listed as +P? No. It's # 47188 1/2.

Are they implying that the smokeless was 1.5X the BP? No idea, yet it is intriguing. I've seen it posted before about the 923 rnd of smokeless cartridges fired safely from a H&A revolver either in 1910 and/or a 1910 which would be in the last model Safety Police range. I'd enjoy more information on this test, but I doubt that is readily available.

Mine came w/o half moon sight. The sight well is a mite over the width of a penny. I fashioned a sight and cut a 22 hull for shims. After about two cylinders I fired to about one inch of muzzle rise. And about another inch of new sight lifting up and tumbling to the ground. Heated 'er up just enough to lose tension. The new prototype is in place. We'll see how that pans out.

I appreciate the discussion in this thread for BP loads. What I hope to find is chronograph results from similar boolit/charge. I'm not sure if this 1901 is a 32, S&W 32 or a S&W 32 long. The long fits w/98 gn LRN. I'm not going to endorse smokeless powder in a BP arm. Regardless, even the S&W cylinders that were heat treated for high pressure smokeless loads are no guarantee for what power loads have been run through them over the decades w/earliest, Model 1917 45 acp, pushing the century mark.

In spite of the price of ammunition there's no new hands, star extractor assemblies, firing pins or springs. Any parts will be used w/some more so than others. Mine is fairly tight though it has certainly seen its share of use over the years. Probably a re-nickel as many were, but still a good representation of a fairly simple and safe design that cost about half of a S&W M&P SA/DA or one of the Colt offerings.

The Forehand Model 1901 morphs into the Safety Police. Different top latch, cylinder retainer and new shape on the star extractor which probably called for a new hand design. Even on the Forehand Model 1901, after all the F&W stocks were used, we see H&A w/dish at top, the new trigger/trigger guard and lastly I suppose the later cylinder retainer which I presume is accompanied by the swirling star/extractor assembly. There may be more differences.

Old and inexpensive I hope to snag a parts Safety Police in 32 to see what parts might interchange. First though I'll comb the old catalogues of the early twentieth century as they may provide a clue. YMMV, but I consider the hammerless six rnd 32 Forehand Model 1901 a fine sidearm w/limitations that certainly demand attention w/consideration for due diligence in use.
 
Last edited:
I believe reasonable is in the eye of the beholder though I thank you for the link and response.

32 S&W Short Black Powder Ammo .311" 90 Grain Lead FN Box of 50

$40.69
Quantity Prices:
Purchase Qty Price (EA)
1
$40.69
2
$37.00
5
$35.60

All ammunition is shipped via FedEx or UPS Ground "ADULT SIGNATURE REQUIRED" ONLY, a +$4.50 charge.

Your Price:
32 S&W Short Black Powder Ammo .311" 90 Grain Lead FN Box of 50

$40.69
Quantity Prices:
Purchase Qty Price (EA)
1
$40.69
2
$37.00
5
$35.60

All ammunition is shipped via FedEx or UPS Ground "ADULT SIGNATURE REQUIRED" ONLY, a +$4.50 charge.

The cowboy WC I shoot is 19 clams a box and the Magtech 25. Plus, this buffalo site offers no ballistic specs on their ammo. I'm a stickler for those specs.
I can't remember the last time I was shipped ammo that required a signature. Not that 4.50 is a lot as at the five box minimum order/maximum discount it isn't even a dollar a box But, 36.50 over five boxes comes to a 57.50 dif that's dippin' into me waterin' hole funds.

Of course, it could be argued that the BP would be considered cheaper if comparing potential damage from touching off smokeless rounds.
At 1.5X ME I would be concerned more were I shooting 38 S&W.

I have a Regulation Police in 38 S&W. As I recall the jury's still out on whether or not the cylinder is heat treated. I'd rather wish it came w/5" brl.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

C
  • Locked
Duplicating Black Powder Loads
Replies
2
Views
433
Chicken-Farmer
Chicken-Farmer
C
  • Locked
Loading black powder pistol cartridges
Replies
3
Views
2K
Archie
Archie
Old Grumpy
  • Locked
Black Powder revolver
Replies
3
Views
570
Jesse Heywood
Jesse Heywood
O
  • Locked
Which Primers for Black Powder Metallic C'tg?
Replies
5
Views
397
rcmodel
R
1
  • Locked
45 Long Colt and Black Powder substitutes
Replies
12
Views
3K
10mmreloader
1
Back
Top