jerkface11
Member
Oh no what will my .264 winmag eat now?
Old Powder Caused Fire!
- Thread starter StrutStopper
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Don't get too paranoid, just understand what you have with this surplus powder. Military surplus powder was removed from inventory because it had reached the end of its lifetime. The mostly likely reason was because the powder had been tested and found to have less than 0.20 percent stabilizer left.
Ammunition Surveillance Procedures SB 742-1
https://acc.dau.mil/adl/en-US/238111/file/68728/SB 742-1 AIN47-13A.pdf
Chapter 13 Propellant and Propelling Charges ,
page 13-1
WARNING
Nitrocellulose-based propellant can become thermally unstable as the age. The normal aging process of the propellants involves deterioration of the nitrocellulose with an accompanying generation of heat. At some point, the propellant may reach a state where heat is generated faster than it can be dissipated. The accumulation of heat can lead to combustion (autoignition). Chemical stabilizers are added to propellants to slow the aging process. In time, the stabilizer levels will drop to a point where the remaining effective stabilizer (RES) is not sufficient to prevent an accelerating rate of decomposition. When this point is reached, the propellant may autoigniet, with possible catastrophic results to property and life. Monitoring the stability level of each propellant lot is essential for continued safe storage.
Page 13-5 , Table 13.2 Propellant Stability Codes.
Stability Category A 0.30 or more Percent Effective Stabilizer
Acceptable stabilizer loss: safe for continued storage
C 0.29-0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer
Significant stabilizer loss. Lot does not represent an immediate hazard, but is approaching a potentially hazardous stability condition. Loss of stabilizer does adversely affect function in an uploaded configuration. Disposition instructions will be furnished by NAR. All stability category “C” assests on the installation must be reported in writing…
One year after becoming stability category “C” a sample of the bulk propellant lot or the bulk-packed component lot will be retested. If the lot has not deteriorated to category “D”, it will be retested each year until it has been expended, or it has deteriorated to category “D”, at which point it will be demilitarized within 60 days.
D Less than 0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer
Unacceptable stabilizer loss. Lots identified as stability category “D” present a potential safety hazard and are unsafe for continued storage as bulk, bulk-packed components , or as separate loading propellant chargers. Bulk propellant, bulk –packed components and separate loading propelling charges will be demilitarized within 60 days after notification of category “D” status.
The military got it out of inventory because they were concerned that it would auto combust and burn down an ammunition bunker. The gunpowder was just at that point. What that means for you, the buyer of this surplus powder, is that your powder needs to be shot up soon. The shelf life of the stuff is going to be short, don't sit on it, don't expect it to last decades, just shoot it up and use it before it starts fuming.
When powder loses its nice ether smell, it has crested from middle age to old age and now is in its terminal stage, so to say. Shoot it up and shoot it up quickly. If the powder is fuming red nitric acid gas, get the stuff out of the house and pour it out on the lawn, or, ignite it in a pile on the lawn. Powder that is fuming is going to auto combust very soon.
Vihtavuori N150 gone bad
http://m14forum.com/ammunition/168641-vihtavuori-n150-gone-bad.html
Know what you have and make decisions based on knowledge instead of ignorance and superstition.
My 5010 power was pull down, my 5010 powder was sold in containers that were not suitable for storing anything, meaning the plastic jugs dissolved. The jugs fatigued and cracked. Again, I checked the powder, it was getting warm, the jug was not sealed because of the container, not because of the lid but because the container was not suitable for long time storage. I do not know how old the jug was when I purchased the jug of powder, I picked it up from Pat's in Ohio.
F. Guffey
R.W.Dale
Member
That's just it our powder was purchased as surplus a decade ago!
It may be time to send this stuff downrange one way or another. It's not worth the risk
It may be time to send this stuff downrange one way or another. It's not worth the risk
jerkface11
Member
I assume it would be safe in loaded ammo?
Why would it stop breaking down just because it's in another "container"?
jerkface11
Member
The lack of oxygen?
jerkface11
Member
This is a powder that doesn't ignite in a normal rifle case until heavily compressed. So a loaded round would have little oxygen.
Before I learned about the deterioration of gunpowder, I had purchased kegs of surplus IMR 4895 and had been shooting the stuff. I noticed an inordinate number of fired cases with cracked case necks. Also, on occasion, the retort was different and I had the occasional sticking case, indicating excessive pressures. Over time, over 600 loaded, unfired, cartridge cases developed case neck cracks.
Nitric acid gas comes out of the gunpowder and attacks the brass. Areas that are highly stressed fail. Such as what you see here:
Pat's surplus AA2520, loaded Nov 2002, fired Jan 15 in a Garand.
I found the sticking cases were due to excessive pressure, Turns out with old gunpowder the combustion pressures increase. Old gunpowder has and will blow up firearms. It depends on how deteriorated the powder has become.
So, is it safe? Hard to say. When you start losing cases to cracks and have sticking extraction, that is when I would say it becomes unsafe. Just when will that happen, I can't predict. Just tell us all when it does so we can use it as a data point.
Some other good reading on powder decomposition, heat effects, etc. continued from slamfires post.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820
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Handloader109
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- 107
I don't have much to add but you guys that have a fire extinguisher, or looking at purchasing one, need to make sure that it would actually put out a powder fire, i. e. Rated for chemical fire, not just a CO2 extinguisher. A water or foam extinguisher would be needed as previously stated that powder does not need oxygen to burn. The normal CO2 extinguishers are pretty much useless.
I thought about this from a different angle, and it is probably "safer" to have old gunpowder in cartridge cases than in bulk cans, from the perspective of fire.
There is a bit of debate in the Insensitive Munitions Community about the validity of the 5 inch rule, but most believe it is true, but I met one who said it was bunk. The five inch rule is that gunpowder stored in cartridge cases less than five inches in diameter won't auto combust in the case. The claim is that the thermal conductivity of the case will wick away heat and prevent auto combustion. The thermal mass of the case won't prevent gunpowder deterioration, the second law of thermodynamics still applies, but it may prevent house fires. The expert who said it was bunk had investigated Naval ammunition explosions (none of which are to be found on the web!) and based on what was supposed to have been in those smoking holes, he was not convinced of the validity of the five in rule.
All insensitive munitions experts agree that gunpowder in bulk, like 8 kegs and probably one pounders, will auto combust when the powder is old enough.
There are hoarders who are absolutely ecstatic about their stash of old gunpowder, like these WW2 era Hodgdon powder kegs, and they get angry and resentful if informed that storing the stuff in the house might not be the safest thing to do. Some of these old coots will wake up to a house in flames, assuming they don't perish in their sleep.
JWH321
Member
Shoot more and you'll have no need to store that stuff. 8 lbs of H335 lasts about a month around here. I buy Titegroup in one pound bottles because I get about 1400 rounds out of one. That takes a couple of months to shoot. I have too much fun shooting and reloading to ever let the powder get old.
mrdeltoid
Member
Properly stored powder doesn't spontaneously start to burn. Neither do people while I'm on the topic...
Powder chemically degrades if stored in hot environments for too long. I am not sure what might happen if the powder is in bad shape. I still seriously doubt it would happen. Other than that, powder isn't going to burn unless exposed to a heat source.
Powder chemically degrades if stored in hot environments for too long. I am not sure what might happen if the powder is in bad shape. I still seriously doubt it would happen. Other than that, powder isn't going to burn unless exposed to a heat source.
Dudedog
Contributing Member
I think seeing the fumes coming out of this jar would make everyone realize that powder goes bad.I do a monthly powder sniff test, but maybe I need to start doing it every week or so.
Those fumes are scary.
Monthly is fine, quarterly is probably fine. Old stuff should be sniffed at least once a year. I had a talk with a friend, a lot of people think that sealed powder won't deteriorate, that powder only deteriorates once the seal is broken. That is absolutely wrong. Break the darn seals on powder a decade old and start sniffing the stuff!!!
Mil Std 286 Propellant testing, Group 400 deals with stability tests.
A common test is to put gunpowder in a sealed test tube, heat the thing at 150F and see if it fumes within 30 days. If it does, the powder should be scrapped.
I was told that litmus paper is put into a sealed test tube with gunpowder. When the litmus paper changes color, the parent lot of gunpowder (propellant) is tested for stability. What I don't know, if there are any criteria for how long it takes the litmus paper to change color.
I have done neither.
The more I research this, the more I find that easy answers are not easily found.
No idea of size of test tube, or sample size. I only remember one size from Chemistry classes. Keep the powder at 150 F until it fumes I would figure half the test tube would give enough fumes. I would stop the test at 30 days.
16in50calNavalRifle
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- Mar 7, 2009
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SlamFire thanks for the substantive contributions here - very educational. Though there is little chance any powder I have will be around for more than a year or two before being loaded and shot, I'm going to write the "vintage" year on each jug and bottle.
It's all stored where it will not experience much heat - and though this is not relevant, I just finished making a simple 1.5-inch thick wood storage box for all the powder per the national fire safety guidelines (loose hatch-style lid to prevent pressure build up in the box in case of disaster/powder ignition).
Question: are primers and their chemical content subject to similar degradation and possible auto-ignition? I'm guessing no, as the chemical compounds in question are quite different, but an informed answer would be nice.
(To use up the scrap wood from the powder box project, I built a smaller version of the powder box to store my primers - the two boxes to be stored at opposite ends of the house; the fire safety guidelines recommend the same 1-inch+ thick wood box for primers)
It's all stored where it will not experience much heat - and though this is not relevant, I just finished making a simple 1.5-inch thick wood storage box for all the powder per the national fire safety guidelines (loose hatch-style lid to prevent pressure build up in the box in case of disaster/powder ignition).
Question: are primers and their chemical content subject to similar degradation and possible auto-ignition? I'm guessing no, as the chemical compounds in question are quite different, but an informed answer would be nice.
(To use up the scrap wood from the powder box project, I built a smaller version of the powder box to store my primers - the two boxes to be stored at opposite ends of the house; the fire safety guidelines recommend the same 1-inch+ thick wood box for primers)
Salmoneye
Member
re. Loaded Cartridges & Bad Powder
I gave SlamFire1 permission to use the pics in this old thread of mine a while back...Anyone else is welcome to use them if they will help get across the fact that powder can and does go bad...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542632
It took me a long time to really understand that I have been lucky over the decades when I would shoot very old ammo...Not saying I have or will stop doing so, but I have a whole new perspective on my inspection procedures before pulling the trigger on surplus, and old commercial stuff...
I gave SlamFire1 permission to use the pics in this old thread of mine a while back...Anyone else is welcome to use them if they will help get across the fact that powder can and does go bad...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=542632
It took me a long time to really understand that I have been lucky over the decades when I would shoot very old ammo...Not saying I have or will stop doing so, but I have a whole new perspective on my inspection procedures before pulling the trigger on surplus, and old commercial stuff...
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