Old Shutzen? Rifle

[Cap n Ball]

I have an elderly friend who is moving into an assisted living condo and he called me to see if I was interested in an old rifle he had. I told him of course I was. By his description I thougth it might be a Sharps but when I saw it I was stunned. Its an old European style hunting or maybe even sniping rifle. Obviously for big game such as boar or elk it is .50 cal, octagonal barrel, 'dishpan' peep site with percussion ignition. The falling block breech is actually a cap ejector. The breech plug for the cap is split and when the lever is pulled down the bottom half springs back to pull out the spent cap. That action also cocks the firing mechanism and the set-trigger is ready with a very light pull. It had to be muzzel loaded but the ram rod must have been carried since there is no provision on the gun to store one. The stock is a piece of sculpture that looks odd but when you fit yourself upon it it becomes as part of your body. It has sling swivels. Beautiful checkering and engraving very tastefully done. There are no names on the outside of the piece. There is a cartouch on the top of the breech that looks like a Masonic 'All Seeing Eye' pyramid with some sort of symbol in the center. Just in front of the cartouch the barrel has flanges that could possibly been intended to take a slide-on tube scope. There is a number on the bottom of the barrel tube just in front of the forearm. The dishpan site is fully adjustable and the muzzel site has a depressable tang so that different sites such as a blade or bead might be inserted. It is missing a pin above the lever and it was replaced with a piece of wire so I will be taking it into the gunsmith to have a new pin made and have the entire piece checked out as to its shootable possibilities. The bore is dark and the rifling is odd, almost like a smoothbore. Any comments or knowledge of guns like this are most welcome. I think this was custom made for some gentleman and is most likely one of a kind.

 

[444]

Bad to the bone.

 

[Leif]

That is a beautiful rifle. I wish I knew more about them, but I believe that scheutzen type rifles were used for target shooting, though may well have been used for hunting.

The Masonic image is an interesting touch.

 

[Jim Watson]

It is a Scheutzen target rifle. The sculpted cheekpiece - probably carved to fit the individual owner - hook buttplate, and peep sight are strictly for offhand target shooting. Not really practical for hunting. There are a fair number of them around. They were looted as souvenirs in the post WW II occupation and brought home by GIs who thought they looked kewl but did not really know what they were for. Some were rebarrelled and restocked as varmint rifles, most just lived in the closet as a memento. A very few were shot by folks who remembered the American single shot target rifles of Century XIX.

The "flanges" on the barrel are for an open sight to be used in competitions not allowing "diopter" peep sights. The loading rod would have been kept separate. No need to have ramrod pipes on the gun, it would only be loaded at a bench at the range and not carried around ready to shoot. I can only guess that the sling swivels would allow you to carry the rifle over your shoulder from car or carriage to the firing line with your hands full of accessories and supplies.


Now here is where it gets weird. The action looks like the Aydt system breechloader, popular in target rifles of the day because it gave good access to the chamber for loading and cleaning, even though not as strong as other designs used for heavy hunting calibers. It was normally chambered for 8.14x46R, which has about the ballistics of .32-40 Winchester.

To see one set up as a muzzleloader kind of like the inlines of today, is most unusual. Like this is the only one I have ever seen illustrated and described.

It is an extremely unusual gun, maybe unique. I haven't a clue as to the dollar value; a good breechloading Schuetzen is worth maybe a couple thousand dollars.

If you want to get the pin made and get it shootable, you need to clean the barrel and measure the rifling twist. Run a tight patch on a swivel handle cleaning rod down the barrel with a mark or flag of tape so you can see it turn and tell how long it takes to make one revolution. That will guide you to a bullet. A long slow twist would be for a ball or "picket" bullet, a fast twist would be for a long bullet. Powder charge (black only of course) will be light, it only had to carry maybe 200 metres accurately.

 

[Cap n Ball]

Thanks Jim! If possible I do intend to shoot it sometime. Proper caps and bullets could be a problem though. Mostly it'll be in my gun room locked up. As to value, I really don't care much since it was a gift from a very dear old friend. He said it belonged to his father so that puts it at least back to the turn of the century. I didn't seriously think it could be a hunting piece due to its weight and sight configuration although it could possibly be used from a stand or blind.

 

[ABTOMAT]

That's amazing. What a lovely gun.

 

[Jagermeister]

Before WWII these guns were made in large? calibers (8.5X46R,) and used as most have stated, "Off Hand" Target Rifles." After WWII Germans were not allowed this type of weapon because of the caliber. Many were conveted to smaller .22 calibers by putting a sleeve in the barrell, and used as small caliber Tgt Rifles. They were termed after conversion Zimmer (Room or Parlor) Schutzen (Shooting) rifles. (Indoor target rifles.

It may be a good idea to check the barrel for a sleeve. If it was brought back from WWII there would be an assumption that it is still in the 8mm Catagory.

As you say. They are well made, very ornate and beutiful guns. Back in the 60's I traded an old BMW motor cycle, (didn't even run) for one of these, and as previously stated, "I didn/t know what I had. NRA provided me with information on it and I still have it. I don't shoot it it is just part of my collections.

JM

 

[Cap n Ball]

As to it being sleeved below are a couple of thumbnails showing the muzzel. I don't think its been altered in any way. Thanks for the info!

 

[Jagermeister]

The sleeve did not go all the way to the muzzle. It was a very short sleeve, so I have been told. Look at the chamber, this will indicate the caliber etc. as the sleeve had a chamber adapter

JM

 

[Jim Watson]

I hadn't thought of that.
The usual Zimmerstutzen was a 4mm rimfire.
What looks like a percussion cap setup at the breech might be the back end of a 4mm insert. The 4mm was a primer-only load like a CB cap only smaller. The working barrel insert was usually only 8-10 inches long.
There were a fair number of these made, a serious Scheutzen shooter would have a matching set, 4mm for indoor shooting in winter, 8.15 for outdoor in the summer. They dropped out of use when air rifles of serious accuracy became available.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Schutzen guns should also come with a bullet mould and maybe even a sizer. It appears that the muzzle is crowned such that it would be easier to insert a patched bullet. Check the twist to determine whether the barrel is for conical or round ball. Antebellum Military Schutzens, of which this is not, had provisions for hangers (sword bayonets). Your Schutzen is strictly a target gun. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ABTOMAT]

Can you get photos of the breech when the action is opened?

 

[Cap n Ball]

Sure, heres one. Its not the best but it shows the split extractor. I'll have to bore scope it to see if its a sleeve or not.

 

[Jim Watson]

That looks more like a little chamber than a percussion cap receptacle. No nipple I can see and they didn't use shotgun primers in those days. Maybe our speculation re muzzleloading was a wild goose chase.

Poke a .22 at it; if it doesn't go in then it is likely a 4mm Zimmerstutzen (parlor rifle).
A short rifled section at the breech end, the rest just bored out to let the little bullet fly and give normal appearance, balance, and sight radius.

A Google search on Zimmerstutzen found several pieces on them but the rifles illustrated were "muzzle loaders." Not actually, just that the actual 4mm rifled insert was at the muzzle end of a long dummy barrel and a breech mechanism about a foot back from the muzzle. A long rod ran from the action to the 4mm breech.

If that is what it turns out to be, you can get ammo for it here:
http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/ammunition.html
They sell 4mm shorts with No 7 balls. If you want to experiment, they also list the primed cases and several different diameter balls so you can match the barrel for best accuracy. This was common in the European Scheutzen era. Every gunmaker had his own idea about what barrel dimensions to use and few shooters cast their own bullets. But they could buy bullets in graduated diameters, not only 4mm Zimmers but also 8.15mm.