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Old Thread but new post.....

Discussion in 'Firearms Research' started by jbrown_14105, Mar 25, 2013.

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  1. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    Hi Folks,
    I am working on a Mark III "India" rifle rebored out to .410 smooth.
    I have Brit .303 cases as well as 30-40 Krag cases for it as well as 3 "sample" bullets that came with the rifle.
    I have "fire-formed some cases (from posting a few years ago on this list) and am looking for load data from guys on this list.
    I am planning on making both "shot" and bullet & roundball loads in the fire-formed brass.
    I've been loading for years (25+) and this "strange" one has intrigued me for a while since I picked up the Mark III for about $99.00 a few years ago.
     
  2. 303tom

    303tom member

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  3. desidog

    desidog Member

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    ^yeah, those work well.

    The issue, as i've found with mine, is that they are cylinder bore, so trying to shoot skeet or trap with it is an exercise in futility. I've tried. What i hit was luck, since the pattern gets thin real quick.

    That being said, mine is as accurate with slugs than some of my rifle's rifled barrels are with bullets.

    I messed around with mine; ground out the 4 rivets, and fit a Saiga 410 mag into it, after extensive frustration with trying to get an Enfield mag to work. ...and I added volley sights...
     
  4. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    They may work since the bore looks like it is straight clean through.
     
  5. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    ordered 5 boxes to "test"
     
  6. backbencher

    backbencher Member

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    Can you get Briley to thread it for choke tubes? : ) Now don't go put the 10 rnd mag back in & try to use it on geese - that's illegal...
     
  7. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    If I get it shooting "well" I might just consider chock tubes....
    Thanks for the idea.
    (though I am a ole smoothbore shooter from long ago, and make smoothbores "shoot"

    Thanks & Happy Easter
     
  8. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    Grizzly loads good but no good

    Well boys,
    I received the "Golden Bear" loads today really nice, long 3" shell.
    http://www.midwayusa.com/product/683...-slug-box-of-5

    However the diameter will NOT fit the Mark III .410 bore that was bored out by the British Government for India Government. the Golden Bear are sized (diameter) as the modern .410 shell.
    The brass I have fire-formed measures .440-.450 at the base.
    The modern loads are .457., even the Winchester-Western are .457 at the brass base, .456 plastic hull measurement.

    Since they are "cheaper" than what I see on my local store shelves I think I'll buy maybe 5 more boxes.......just because!
     
  9. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    fire-formed the brass for .410

    Well guys I fire-formed forty .30-40 brass into "long .410 sized brass for my "India/Brit" Mark III smooth bore gun.
    All came out but one, end of shell split.
    I used 5 grains of "Clays" , with cornmeal for filler & soap as a front plug...
    nice "report"

    Now I need to work on making a "hull" for these, and am awaiting a .410 250 grain Lyman mold (to arrive) for bullets.
    Any idea on what powder load to use other than the standard .410 shotgun loads?
    Thanks
    Jim Brown
     
  10. belercous

    belercous Member

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    Not that it's any of my business, but why not re-cut the chamber for American .410? That's what I did since I'm not a reloader.
     
  11. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    I don't know about the India connection, but many of those rifles were reamed out in England because at one time a shotgun could be owned with only registration, while ownership of a rifle required a police license with periodic police inspection and so on. (Today, AFAIK, even shotguns require a license and one is granted only to those who can show they have access to hunting land or belong to an approved club where the gun will be stored.)

    Jim
     
  12. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    Just wanted to say thanks/shot cup?

    Guys,
    I just wanted to say thanks for all the info, the gun did go to India.
    I am also working on making the rounds with .40/41 roundball, as well as .41 cal 250 gr bullets.
    I need ideas for a "shot cup", though I am at the moment planning on "rolling my own" to fit inside.
    I have done it with a flintlock smooth bore 20 gauge and pattern works out pretty well.
    Any ideas?
    Thanks
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2013
  13. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    some history on Brit/India .410 musket round

    Muskets and Shotguns
    Conversions of rifles to smoothbored guns was carried out in several locations, for varying reasons.
    SAF Lithgow, in Australia, produced shotguns based on the MkIII action, chambering the common commercial .410 shotgun shell.
    Commercial gunsmiths in Australia and Britain converted both MkIII and No4 rifles to .410 shotguns.
    These conversions were prompted by firearms legislation which made possession of a rifle chambered in a military cartridge both difficult and expensive. Smoothbored shotguns could be legally held with far less trouble.

    In India, they converted a large number of MkIII rifles to single shot muskets, chambered for the .410 Indian Musket cartridge. These conversions were for issue to police and prison guards, to provide a firearm with a much-reduced power and range in comparison to the .303 cartridge. A further likely consideration was the difficulty obtaining replacement ammunition in the event of theft or the carrier's desertion.
    While British and Australian conversions were to the standard commercially available .410 shotgun cartridge (though of varying chamber lengths) the Indian conversions have been the source of considerable confusion.

    The Indian conversions were originally chambered for the .410 Indian Musket cartridge, which is based on the .303 British cartridge, and will not chamber the common .410 shotgun cartridge.
    Many of these muskets were re-chambered, after being sold as surplus, and can now be used with commercially available ammunition.
    Unmodified muskets require handloading of ammunition, as the .410 Indian Musket cartridge was not commercially distributed and does not appear to have been manufactured since the 1950s.


    (folks I am almost done doing a custom cartridge for this round, I am awaiting a Lee sizing die in .410, I have 215 grain cast bullets made, and fire-formed shells. RCBS is interested in making the die setup for this!)
    Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.
     
  14. 303tom

    303tom member

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    Pictures.................
     
  15. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    OK YOu asked for pictures

    Here are the first 4 pics (I Hope)
    The castings are in soft lead, the finished product of bullets after testing will be the Alloy #2 which is alot harder as you all know.
     

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    Last edited: May 12, 2013
  16. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    2 more picts

    here are the last 2 picts. the mold is a old Lyman
    Note my notes on the length of the cartridge. The bore of the Mark III is completely smooth and straight through. The Rim & bolt holds the cartridge in the chamber.
     

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  17. jbrown_14105

    jbrown_14105 Member

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    .410 Lee sizing die

    Folks,
    Got the Lee .410 sizing die in today, matched perfectly with my lead cast ammo.
    .410 cast, sized, and set bullets into the fire-formed cases, fit very well into the Mark III "India" musket.
    Now to work up a load, with Reloader 7 or Alliant 2400 and use alloy #2 for rounds. My .410 shotshell manuals use H110 or 296 15 grains.

    The .410 shotshells produce around 24,000, but the Enfields are capable of 42,000.

    What do you think?
    Browny
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
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