Olin explains Browning choice

[ilbob]

Unions are not the problem in and of themselves. The problem is that the idiots that run these companies made way too many promises they knew they could not keep in an attempt to have labor peace.

Look at who were the big pushers for national health care in the background. GM/Ford/Chrysler and the big unions. They knew the gig was up and that economics would catch up with all the promises that had been made and they wanted the feds to bail them out.

 

[redranger1]

ilbob, you have made my point. Unions have way to much power over a company to demand the things that they do from a company. And though a company might have promised this or that, they never would have done it if they where not forced to by the lack of production from workers being on strike and threatening the very existance of that company. The man paying the money makes the rules, if you dont like them then find another job.

 

[Onmilo]

Blaming a trade union for a Corporate decision to shutter a company and move it overseas is right up there with blaming George Bush for all the ills in the world today.
I surely expect more from posters to THR,,,,,,

 

[panzermk2]

Full Discloser
BIAS ALERT I was screwed over by my union and since then have a hatred of them



Actually the unions do share a large part of the blame. Making it impossible for companies to update mfg and any thing else that might cause a worker to loose a job. That plant was always known for union labor problems.

I watched this happen in the steel mills in Gary IN. The unions were powerful enough to keep the plants operating at the status quo for decades. Not allowing any updating. They told there members don't worry we will stick it to the company and make sure your job is safe.
Then the company can't compete with its 1930's technology and the Mill closes, Union keeps all the dues paid and the worker is left with nothing except a letter from their union telling them they still have to make dues payments if they want to keep their retirement plan.
Unions in the past were needed, now I think not in their current evolution.
They promote the lowest common denometer, use fear mongering, and physical threats against their members to stay in power.

 

[HankB]

Full Disclosure
BIAS ALERT My late grandfather was screwed over by his union and since then I still have a hatred of them.

Unions have been keeping Colt's at death's door for years, so Winchester isn't alone in that regard. Selling plenty of guns, but STILL losing money? Makes no sense.

IMHO a good part of the problem is that Winchester wasn't being run by gun-savvy people - Old man Winchester was, IIRC, a shirt manufacturer - but with a good patent portfolio, you could get away with that in the 19th century. In today's competitive market, that's a problem.

Missing the cowboy-action market has already been alluded to, but Winchester messed up in the big-game market too - they could easily have put a drop-box magazine holding 4 or 5 rounds on their big .375 & .458 Mags, but didn't; they could easily have brought out the M70 in .458 Lott, but except for very pricey "custom shop" rifles, they didn't. They could have scaled up the M70 action to take .416 Rigby or the big Weatherby rounds, but they didn't. Etc. etc.

Browning marketing representatives have a reputation of being saavy to what gun buyers want to buy.

At least they're willing to TRY some new things - and bring back the old; I just handled a new Browning T-Bolt .22 rifle this past weekend. We'll see if it sells . . . price was between $500 and $600.

 

[JohnBT]

I'm waiting to see a T-Bolt. And I'm waiting to see the new Browning shotguns and the Winchester SX-3's and just about everything else they've been hyping since the first of the year.

And how many Model 52's could they have sold to guys like me who paid between $1100 and $5000 for a Cooper .22?

How many more of the Made in Japan reproduction 52's could they have sold even if they had to raise the price?

John

 

[444]

.

 

[Randy in Arizona]

444, I truly wish you would not leave these lengthy, verbose replies! Short and concise replies, please!

How many of you actually own a Model 94 made in the last 10 years?

My "new" model 94 is a '66 Centennial model. Picked it up as a very slightly rusted, no box, no owners manual deal. The rust came off with oil and 0000 steel wool. My only gripe is that I can not chamber the same cast boolit as I use in the Marlin.

 

[axeman_g]

i would

If they move the rifle production to the same plant now making the FN p35s, I would buy one. My hipower is a great gun, quality on par with anything earlier, beauty ... hmm not as much as an earlier version. But neither are the new s&w revolvers and an old s&w revolver. No comparison.

 

[Marshall]

I've never purchased a bad Browning. I'm looking forward to seeing the guns, I imagine they will be done nicely.

 

[orangelo]

I knew FN wouldn't dump the Winchester products. Because the FN Patrol Rifle line is basically nothing but souped up Winchester Model 70s in synthetic stocks.

 

[ArmedBear]

By the way, how many of you would like to see Winchester .22s again?
Pump, bolt and semi autos.

Don't care. Maybe for the kid, but he can learn to take care of a cheap knockoff before he gets an expensive rifle of any brand, anyway.

How about Model 12 and 42 shotguns with modern steel and choke tubes?

Not for the money they'd have to charge. The 870 Wingmaster blew the beloved Model 12 from the marketplace decades ago because the Model 12 wasn't worth the extra money to most people. An Ithaca 37 is interesting to me; let's see how they do, first, though, before trying to call Winchester's odds. Personally, I think the day of the high-end gentleman's pump gun is past, in the mass market. Only a ban on semiautos would change that, and I don't want to see that happen.

How about a pre-64 style Model 70 in .22 Hornet or maybe .250-3000?

Sure, if it's cheaper and better than a Ruger, a Remington, a CZ, a Howa/Weatherby, etc. At this point, if they re-introduce the old war-horse made in some random developing country, they're going to have a hard time proving to me that it's worth the money they charge. Bear in mind two things: CRF doesn't matter for crap on a varmint rifle or to a lot of rifle buyers, and CZ and Ruger already offer it to those who care.

There was only one Model 70 that really interested me: the Classic Featherweight.

My point? I think they'd have an uphill battle. A real uphill battle.

Letting the 94 languish and die while CAS grew was a truly monumental management and marketing mistake, one that would be hard to erase. Charging ever more for the M70, likewise.

 

[greg531mi]

Let's outsource everything!
With our industrial base gone, there will be another great depression....
Look in the history books, things tend to repeat themselves......

 

[ArmedBear]

Let's outsource everything!
With our industrial base gone, there will be another great depression....
Look in the history books, things tend to repeat themselves......

For the record, I buy American guns when I can (nearly always). I have no plans to buy any new Winchesters. We'll see if anyone else does.

 

[JohnBT]

"because the Model 12 wasn't worth the extra money to most people"

Well who is it that's buying up all the old Model 12's if they aren't worth it? Somebody is hoarding them because they're few and far between. I just have to believe there's a market for new ones.

They didn't discontinue the Model 12's and all of the other pre-64 Winchesters because people weren't buying them, they simply decided to cut every corner they could to try and make some money selling sorry ol' cheap guns. They would have had their guns made in China if they'd thought of it.

John

 

[ArmedBear]

Well who is it that's buying up all the old Model 12's if they aren't worth it? Somebody is hoarding them because they're few and far between. I just have to believe there's a market for new ones.

Who is buying them? Old guys who have money and memories, mostly.

Few and far between? Old Model 12's are not particularly expensive. They're also not particularly hard to find, for a gun that hasn't been made in over 40 years.

New ones would be expensive. Again, see Ithaca. If Ithaca finds a good-sized market for $700-and-up pump guns, Winchester may have a shot. Still, part of Ithaca's appeal will be that they're US-made.

I covet the Model 12 owned by a guy on my trap league. It's a nice gun. But trap is now the domain of break-actions. Other games? O/U's and some semiautos. Pumps still have a place in shotgunning, especially in the field, but not $1000 pumps. I'd keep it if I had one, but I wouldn't up and buy one.

 

[JohnBT]

I never see any around here. Haven't seen one in 5 years or more. I just searched gunsamerica and there were less than a dozen Model 12's. I searched earlier and there were 4 PAGES of Superposeds.

Old guys with money? Well yeah, they're buying all the guns that aren't black, plastic and less than $549.95. As much as I like my 870, it'll never handle and feel like a Model 12. Same with the 1100 and the SX-1. There's a whole big market out there that doesn't revolve around the question "What's the best gun for the money?"

Old guys with money are driving up the price of everything worth owning and some things that aren't. I contend that the Model 12 is worth owning and that a faithful recreation/reproduction would be a good seller. That way we could shoot the new ones and collect the old ones - if I could find an old one to collect.

Who figured a 1911 with tiny sights, no checkering, no beavertail, no frills, and a brushed finish would sell like hotcakes for $999? Colt. And it's a great shooter, too. I got lucky and walked in the store as they were unpacking it. The first one they received sold the same day too. Maybe we'll get some high quality Winchesters to pick from. I can only hope.

John

 

[ArmedBear]

There's a whole big market out there that doesn't revolve around the question "What's the best gun for the money?"

1. No there isn't. Just because someone pays $10,000 for a gun doesn't mean that he's not looking for the best choice for his money. Note that even the BT-100, which was downright CHEAP for its specific market segment, was a marketing failure. And its market segment is one where prices genuinely shock most shooters. And Dakota's current woes don't bode well for the size of that market, either.

2. Insofar as there is a whole big niche market that seems to defy the laws of economics, that market probably exists for single and O/U trap guns first, then for other O/U competitive shotguns, then for custom bolt action rifles, then for competition pistols, then for oddities like the BFR, in that order of market size. Pump guns don't even make the list.

Furthermore, a replica Model 12 ain't the real thing, any more than a Norinco Ithaca clone is. The market won't traat a Model 12 replica like the real thing, and it can't be too cheap and still be decent quality, because the whole reason it is no longer made is because it was expensive to make at a competitive price (ditto for the Remington 3200, also still prized).

Have you bought a Model 12? If not, why not? They're really not that expensive. What would you pay for a new real one? What about a Russian copy with Winchester stamped on it? Seriously.

Who figured a 1911 with tiny sights, no checkering, no beavertail, no frills, and a brushed finish would sell like hotcakes for $999? Colt.

How many have they sold? The 1911 market is VERY different from the pump shotgun market, from all I can tell. The Colt brand DOES seem to defy the laws of economics, sometimes. I'd call that luck -- good for Colt, but not something that a company can replicate at will. Winchester, apparently, doesn't rate, for various reasons.

Again, 99% of the guys who appreciate the Model 12 enough to pay for it went to break-actions years ago. Why? Because they got (relatively) cheaper. That's what they always REALLY wanted anyway.

 

[280PLUS]

Group wants tax cash for Winchester workers
Steve Higgins, Register Business Editor
08/23/2006

-NEW HAVEN — A citizens’ group will hold a rally at the shuttered Winchester plant at 3 p.m. today to pressure the Board of Aldermen into helping the former workers.

The Winchester Citizens Ad Hoc Committee is calling for a public hearing to address the city’s ongoing loss of manufacturing jobs. The group is also calling on city officials to give $850,000 in back taxes collected from the former U.S. Repeating Arms Co. to the 186 workers who lost their jobs when the plant at 344 Winchester Ave. closed in March.

"Health care insurance for those workers will run out after six months," said Craig Gauthier, chairman of the committee. "Their life has been put on hold."

The rally will take place at the Division Street entrance, at Newhall Street.

The rally was called after Olin Corp. last week awarded the license to produce Winchester rifles to Browning in Utah, rather than to a group led by a Greenwich investor that pledged to keep production in the United States and keep a New Haven presence.

Gauthier, who worked at the plant for 23 years and left in 1996, said USRAC’s Belgian parent company, Herstal Group, failed to abide by the terms of an agreement worked out in 1992 by the city, USRAC, Science Park and the Machinists union.

Under the agreement, USRAC received tax abatements to build a new plant across from the original Winchester plant, which opened 140 years ago. In return, the company agreed to remain in New Haven and give employees at least six months’ notice before moving out. The employees received two months’ notice.

"There were a lot of safeguards in the tax abatement language," said Gauthier, who led the union local at the time. "We needed to have these safeguards because we didn’t trust the company would continue to stay here otherwise. City, state and union members made concessions so that a new plant could be built.

"Our dream was that it would be a place that workers could continue to work and their kids could come there to work. It gave people a future."

In return for those concessions, Gauthier said, the workers should get the $850,000 in back taxes Herstal recently paid the city. They also deserve the money because they lost four months of pay and benefits when Herstal gave only two months’ notice of the closing, he said.

However, aldermanic President Carl Goldfield said the money already has been budgeted.

"The demands on the city’s coffers are pretty great," Goldfield said. "I don’t know that the city has the financial strength to make (the former USRAC workers) whole. It would be wonderful if the federal or state government would step forward and help them out."

Goldfield said city officials are discussing whether holding a public hearing would "make a positive contribution."

"Everyone is very sympathetic to these guys," Goldfield said. "We feel terrible that they lost their jobs and the plant closed. We did everything we could to prevent it from happening. The city made an effort over a number of years to keep that plant open."

City officials have said they intend to continue trying to find a manufacturer to buy or lease the plant.

Gauthier said the displaced workers called on him because he was involved with the citizens’ group after it was formed during a 1979 strike and because Gauthier was involved in the tax abatement negotiations.

"We have felt since 2000 that Herstal’s plan was to eventually move the plant either to South Carolina or some other place where people weren’t making the money that we had won over the years," Gauthier said, citing strikes held in 1969 and 1979 and a 1973 walkout. "Those wages and benefits came from people’s suffering."

Sources close to the negotiations with Missouri-based Olin — which at one time owned the New Haven plant and still makes Winchester ammunition — said Browning officials implied they plan to move production of the rifles made in New Haven overseas. (The local news just said "Turkey" FYI)
Officials with Browning, which is also owned by Herstal, have in the past denied they plan to make the famed Model 70 and Model 94 rifles overseas. Browning officials did not return phone calls seeking comment over the past few days.

Gauthier called on the city to do more to provide manufacturing jobs in the area, even if it means taking over the 225,000-square-foot plant by eminent domain.

"It’s a disgrace that corporate greed won out over integrity, tradition and loyalty to dedicated New Haven workers," he said. "But Winchester workers are still here, even if the company is not."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Higgins can be reached at [email protected] or 789-5752.



©New Haven Register 2006

 

[JohnBT]

"1. No there isn't."

Yes there is. Too many people with too much money who want to spend it. I see them at 2 or 3 stores all the time buying shotguns that run $2k, $3k, $5k+. Saw a husband and wife one day buy 2 shotguns at $3.5K each. Maybe next time they'll decide they have enough O/U's and buy a nice pump or two. If they're like me they've been accumulating guns for 40 or 50 years and have some that belonged to past generations and just don't need anymore field grade beater guns.

Colt will sell 4,000 of the WWI Repros before they stop production on them and they're more than half way through the run. They sold all 4k of the earlier WWII Repros. Meanwhile, they keep making the less expensive models using much of the same equipment. No reason a shotgun maker couldn't do the same thing.

"Have you bought a Model 12? If not, why not? They're really not that expensive. What would you pay for a new real one?"

Don't need a field grade, well unless I run into a small gauge locally. I'd like to have something in a Pigeon Grade, and I'm hoping they could make it for less than 10 grand. I know FN/Browning/Win is capable of doing the work.

"Impeccable, Magnifique, "ONE-OF-A-KIND" Winchester Model 12 Pigeon Grade 12 Ga. 3-Barrel Set Prototype (SN: Y202xxxx). Fully Engraved Receiver w/ SIX Solid Gold Inlay, 3 Complete Barrel Assemblies, 30" Full Choke, 28" Mod Choke, 26" Imp Cyl Choke. Stocks and Forearms are Made From Special High Grade Burl Walnut. Includes Letters of Certification. Gun is Absolutley NEW-IN-BOX, No Handling Marks"

www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976486332.htm

 

[Aguila Blanca]

By the way, how many of you would like to see Winchester .22s again?
Pump, bolt and semi autos.

2/3 of them can be bought today ... from Taurus. Taurus bought the rights to, and is producing, the Model 62 pump .22 and the Model 63 semi-auto carbine. The last time the Model 63 was in Winchester's catalog (maybe 5 or 6 years ago?) it had a list price of over $800. Taurus is selling the same rifle for about $300. The difference is the wages paid in Brazil compared to the wages the union was getting in New Haven. I'm sad to see an iconic name like Winchester being sold out (or rented out) to production outsode of the U.S., but the primary blame lies with the workers who demanded to be supported in the style to whcih they hoped to become accustomed.

 

[Outlaws]

IMO the reason Winchester kicked the bucket and, IMO, the reason Remington will soon also kick the bucket at some point, is that they refuse to offer new products. Sure Remington is trying, but they don't try hard enough.

Winchester needed to make more than just lever guns and bolt actions of varying quality/price. Why no do what they were originally for.....all forms of subsistence. That doesn't mean only hunting. That means protection.

The Henry rifle and the 1873 dished out so much lead at the enemy that they could turn the tide of a battle. But waht of that today? Who cares. I have my Model 94....and I love it. But I would have bought a modern Winchester "assult rifle" had they designed one (that didn't look like that Beretta atrocity lol).

Firearms are for all sorts of things. Gun companies don't get that. Ruger is different IMO since they revived the single action revolver and built their business on that, so if that is their bread and butter, so be it. But Winchester came into its own based on innovation. When that is the foundation for a company you need to keep with it. There is nothing wrong with continuing to produce what made you great, but to rest on your laurels and expect that to carry you through for 100 years...well you get what you deserve.

:banghead:

 

[ArmedBear]

That's a really nice shotgun. It made me think of this:

Meanwhile, they keep making the less expensive models using much of the same equipment. No reason a shotgun maker couldn't do the same thing.

If they still HAVE the same equipment... And if they can make a field grade Model 12 for a competitive price, which, if they could, they presumably still would. They tried it in the early 70s, remember?

Oh wait... The Colt is a limited run WW I repro? Actually, they're calling it a reissue, right? Collectors LOVE World War I/II stuff, and cowboy stuff right now. That's where the price comes from, same as the "real Colt" Single Action Army, which is objectively no better a gun than a Cimarron Uberti, other than it being a "real Colt". Collector prices are a side issue, but pertinent here.

A collector might be interested in a bling-bling Model 12 like that, but only an American-made Pre-1964 Model 12. You seriously think a collector has any interest in a gussied-up Miroku replica? Or are people taking pump guns to live pigeon shoots, now?

Saw a husband and wife one day buy 2 shotguns at $3.5K each. Maybe next time they'll decide they have enough O/U's and buy a nice pump or two.

I know that couple, or one just like them. They're not going to be buying any pumps, except perhaps an 870P to protect the PG Berettas and various other nice guns they have, or a beater duck gun so they can leave it in the cabin in Texas and they don't have to mess up any of the nice guns.

The fanciest new pump gun you can readily purchase right now is an 870 Classic Trap, but it fills a different niche: it's a nice-shooting, nice-looking trap gun for half the price of its closest competitor, the BT-99.

Look, I'm not saying that I don't like the Model 12. I do. I'm not saying that a bling-bling Model 12 has no appeal: it does. I'm just saying that I don't see a lot of new Wingmasters, even. I do see a lot of Remington Express and Mossberg 500 and 835 field guns, and the occasional 1300 or Nova. From what I can see, most of the pump gun market is for durable, cheap field guns, and the buckshot throwers of course. People do shoot old Model 12s, Remington 31s (I'll take one of those over a M12 BTW if it's in good shape), and a few other classics, but that's because they have had them, or they got grandpa's gun.

There are plenty of collectible guns that are worth a lot of money, but generally that's because there is a small enough supply that it doesn't really meet the demand.

I really don't understand why Remington doesn't make the 3200 any more, but if they don't, it must be because they don't think they can make a profit doing it.

 

[Onmilo]

Yeah, who woulda thunk gun buyers in the US would buy replicas of old, obsolete Winchester rifles and really old and obsolete muzzleloading rifles, made in Italy no less,,,,,,

And how about those less than perfect replica Winchester pumpguns made in a communist country???
Never thought inna thousand thoughts that something like that would sell here, Canada maybe, but not here,,,,,

Anybody ever compared a Brazilian made Winchester .22 replica to a replica made by Miroku of Japan?
Miroku makes the Brazilian product look like something concocted by a backwoods gunsmith.
You will pay more for the Japanese product and get what you pay for.
There is no comparison unless you place the Japanese rifles next to American made examples and like it or not the Japanese guns sometimes exceed the quality of the American products and the ironic thing is the private gun ownership is highly restricted in both Japan and Brazil.
American union shops could and can make a product just as acceptable as the Japanese product and the price wouldn't be any much higher but the American manufacturers don't want to make guns that sell, they want to make the guns that the marketing departments recommend and most of the time the marketing representatives are all wrong on what they think will sell.
Personally if they do move production I would much rather see the Portugese get the work.
The quality would be high and if the Belgians don't decide to get profit greedy the price will be lower than a Japanese produced product and the quality of manufacture will be way higher than Brazilian manufacture.

I might be wrong here but those copies of the Super X2 and the 1300,,,,
Made in Portugal now, not Belgium.
The Belgians moved most production to Portugal because they felt the manufacturing costs are way too high in their own country too.

 

[ArmedBear]

Onmilo, I have two Japanese guns (Browning-branded Miroku BT-99 and Weatherby-branded Howa Vanguard Sporter) and they're definitely favorites. They're also not cheap. The Weatherby was a few bucks less than the similar Remington CDL, maybe, but it's definitely in the same ballpark. The BT has no American-made competition, but they're in the same range as a Ruger O/U.

I'm not putting them down. Those guns are, like I said, real favorites.

However...

Uberti lever gun demand is driven by CAS and Western movie nostalgia -- and quality. There just simply isn't anything like that to drive high-end Model 12 repros. Like I said, FN tried it in the '70s already.

It's not that a Miroku Model 12 wouldn't be a good gun. The question is, "Would someone pay for it?" I say, not enough people. Pump guns no longer occupy the same market niche as they did 50 years ago. The vast majority of pump buyers I see want a durable gun to toss around in the field, or a defensive shotgun.

And when FN can sell solid but plain-jane BT-99s for $1300 as fast as they can make them, why tie up Miroku's production line to make a more complicated gun they'd have to sell for far less?