On drama, and trauma, and knowing when to walk away

[BLB68]

There are two kinds of shooters, as far as I can tell after a half century of messing about with firearms - those who HAVE had an unintended discharge, and those who are going to.

This bit of "wisdom" irritates me every time I see it. Not the least of which because it's such a great quote for the antis, but because I know damned well that many, many firearms owners and shooters go to their graves without ever having a negligent discharge.

Even if intended as hyperbole to stress a point, I find it objectionable.

That said, I have a great deal of respect for the person who said it. It's the words themselves I have issue with.

 

[conw]

This bit of "wisdom" irritates me every time I see it. Not the least of which because it's such a great quote for the antis, but because I know damned well that many, many firearms owners and shooters go to their graves without ever having a negligent discharge.

Even if intended as hyperbole to stress a point, I find it objectionable.

That said, I have a great deal of respect for the person who said it. It's the words themselves I have issue with.

I've seen it phrased differently but didn't find this usage irritating. My reading was that it was hyperbolic and intended to convey that many people learn better from experience.

 

[BLB68]

I've seen it phrased differently but didn't find this usage irritating. My reading was that it was hyperbolic and intended to convey that many people learn better from experience.

I also suspect it was hyperbolic, but I really hate that phrase.

 

[Fred Fuller]

This bit of "wisdom" irritates me every time I see it.

I'm as careful with firearms as anyone I know, and FAR more careful than many I have encountered along the way. Yet my own experiences (multiple, as described above) tell me that "bit of wisdom" is TRUTH.

I gave you my full curriculum vitae of unintentional discharges. Are you telling me you are so completely certain that nothing like any of the things that happened to me could ever happen to you?

Seriously?

It CAN be avoided by simply not handling firearms at all. Other than that, if any given person handles enough firearms often enough for long enough periods of time, it is likely SOMETHING will eventually go wrong which produces an unintentional discharge.

 

[BLB68]

This bit of "wisdom" irritates me every time I see it.

I'm as careful with firearms as anyone I know, and FAR more careful than many I have encountered along the way. Yet my own experiences (multiple, as described above) tell me that "bit of wisdom" is TRUTH.

Firearms accidents are no more inevitable than school shootings. You're misapplying a generalization if you think everyone who ever handles a firearm will have an unintentional discharge.

However, if you are saying that by handling your firearms a lot, you are increasing the odds of an accident, then I agree. The more you do an activity, the more chances there are to screw something up, whether it's driving a lot of hours or handling guns a lot.

I gave you my full curriculum vitae of unintentional discharges. Are you telling me you are so completely certain that nothing like any of the things that happened to me could ever happen to you?

Show me the part of my post where I said this couldn't happen to me. You can't. This isn't about me.

Are you so certain that everybody who has ever handled a firearm regularly has had an accidental discharge? Show me the proof of that statement.

As I've said, I'm sure a great many gun owners have gone to their graves without having any mishap. Prove me wrong.

Seriously?

No, I was totally joking.

It CAN be avoided by simply not handling firearms at all. Other than that, if any given person handles enough firearms often enough for long enough periods of time, it is likely SOMETHING will eventually go wrong which produces an unintentional discharge.

So, now you've gone from "certain" to "likely." As I said above, I totally agree that the more time spent handling firearms, the greater the odds of an accident occurring. This is true of any activity.

There's not truth to the statement that it will happen to everybody eventually. It doesn't. People will die before they have a negligent discharge. It happens all the time. That's how probability works.

Increased chances are not certainties.

 

[benEzra]

But having "personally verif[ied] its condition," I know it's unloaded and that I can safely treat it as such as long as it's in my direct control.

That's fine, as long as you still treat it as if it were loaded when it comes to muzzle direction.

If someone has personally cleared a gun and thenceforth allows it to point it at *his own* foot, leg, arm, or a safe-but-expensive backstop, well....I think it's unwise, but he'd be the only one injured if he made a mistake. Just don't allow it to point it at me, or at the group of people across the street, or in any other direction that it could cause harm to others if it fired.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the "handle it like it's unloaded when I've verified it unloaded" approach is that some people feel entitled to casually point them in unsafe directions, at other people who have *not* personally verified it's unloaded. The case in the OP seems to fall into this category. I don't think anyone on this thread would do this, but the instructor in the OP apparently felt entitled to wave the gun casually around since he had verified it was unloaded, and that teaching (if it's unloaded, handle it like you want) does seem to be prone to that misinterpretation.

 

[easyg]

Loaded or not, you don't point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy.

This is what we have been taught, and this is what we teach.
And an instructor teaches not only by words and actions, but also by example.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Loaded or not, you don't point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy.

This is what we have been taught, and this is what we teach.
And an instructor teaches not only by words and actions, but also by example.

AMEN.

 

[SSN Vet]

I'm in a quandary after reading all that. You see, I'm not a real firm believer in the Cooper rule we often see quoted as "All guns are always loaded.

Loaded or not, you don't point a firearm at anything you don't want to destroy.

Of course, all the "literalist" will choose to overlook their own little missteps. For example, do you ever sight the bore of your rifle after cleaning it? Well according to the literal interpretation, you just pointed a loaded gun at your own eyeball.

When I give a safety brief at the club I belong to, I use Cooper as the outline, but quote rule number one "all guns are to be considered loaded, until proven otherwise"

Then I go into significant discussion about how you go about "proving" otherwise, emphasizing that you can't do this if you don't understand how the mechanism works (i.e. you may not be qualified to check the gun unloaded and need to swallow your pride and ask for assistance... which is the right thing to do). I wrap this section up with a demonstration of the classic semi-auto handgun mistake..... check chamber, drop slide, eject mag..... is it loaded?

I don't like to be flagged as much as the next guy, but consider it less of an egregious offense if the weapon has been demonstrated clear (in my presence). I'll physically move out of the way if I can, and fortunately, haven't been in a really unsafe situation yet.

I whole heartedly agree that people should be prepared to promptly leave the scene when unsafe gun handling is going down.

As far as engaging in escalating arguments.... that's a sure barometer of ones maturity as a human being.

 

[taliv]

For example, do you ever sight the bore of your rifle after cleaning it?

only if it is disassembled.

 

[Trent]

only if it is disassembled.

I'll do it with bolt guns without pulling the bolt out. You have to open the action anyway to get light in them.

Revolvers, with the wheel swung out.

And some guns are a pain in the neck to disassemble just to sight down the bore, if you're just doing a casual bore-cleaning after a shoot and not doing the action (Ruger 10/22 comes to mind, as does the Ruger MKIII).

Also, if I'm checking for a squib bullet in the bore, remove the magazine, eject the shell casing, confirm with fingers and eyes both are empty, lock action open, swing around to see if there's daylight peeking through...

 

[BrokenSailor]

Its an argument....

You could put a flag in the weapons chamber to solve everyones issue.


The place where I see guns pointed in my direction all the time are in Gun Stores. Some stores use flags. Mine doesn't. I don't like it. Someone could walk in with a round and do something stupid.

Put it simply when it comes to guns we guard against even the POTENTIAL danger for a person to be shot. The argument here is really whether there are appropriate times when we guard against just the ACTUAL danger to be shot.

Its an argument....

 

[Magoo]

I recently attended the funeral of my childhood best friend's father, a highly decorated attack helicopter pilot of the Vietnam vet generation. As we all turned to watch the presentation of the 21 gun salute I noted that the minimum age of the sharply dressed shooters was at least 70. I then watched them go through the ritualized motions, now noting how trembling hands and lack of strength were giving several trouble working the actions. When rifles were shouldered and the command to fire was issued, I felt quite uneasy that several of these gentlemen were pointing their guns directly at the funeral party. I saw a 7 gun salute. I only heard the other 14 as I couldn't bear to watch several guys point a gun at me, hear the command to fire, and commence to hear the bang of them shooting directly at me from ~50 feet away. I know/knew they were (supposed to be, and surely were) blanks, but it made me feel pretty weird.

 

[BLB68]

Blanks can still be dangerous at short ranges. They should have had the guns pointed up at an angle. I've done more than a few funerals, and that doesn't sound right at all.

 

[twofifty]

sudden change reduces situational awareness

A valuable discussion about an important topic - thanks for the thread.

Having been involved in multiple shooting disciplines, I've noticed that each sport has it's own peculiar way of ensuring safe handling. Practices vary, as do circumstances.

This brings me to suggest that a common reason for unsafe handling is a sudden change in the shooter's usual or expected circumstances. A simple break in a well established routine can easily cause an unintended sweep or worse.

Examples include a jam or other malfunction, an unexpected distraction off to one side, picking something up the wind blew away, arguing over a score, moving from a square range to a dynamic range, etc. We get wrapped up in the distraction and lose our situational awareness.

edit: I'd like to add that a strict established routine is good, but too strict an adherence can also reduce the frequency with which one reviews/renews situational awareness. Assessing and re-assessing are good habits to have.