On the phrase "Molon Labe"

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The term "Molon Labe" means more today than it did in the past. As a rallying cry, it is a reminder to tyrants that the cost of disarming the people may be far more than the expected gain. Look up "Phyrrhic victory".

Regardless of the numbers, the Greeks at Thermoplyae gave far better than they took, no matter what the actual numbers were (I doubt there were 1 million Persians). They faced the best Persia had: the Immortals, and threw them back. It is very important in war to put fear into the hearts of those who may have to face you.

As for Wiki, useful for quick data download, but stick to books for concise facts. Because the contributors are 'nameless', you do not know the agenda of the posters.
 
1. The first historian who claims the phrase “molon labe” was uttered just before the battle of Thermopylae was a Roman who lived several hundred years after the battle. No previous commentaries mention the phrase.

Um, Plutarch was Greek.
 
Please remember that the Persians were not defeated at Thermopylae. Did they suffer loss of moral and a lot of troops, probably so. The Greeks delayed the Persian army allowing more time to prepare and showed that their heavy infantry hoplites were superior to the light infantry of the Persians. It also provided a heroic example for future generations which is also very important to martial traditions.

It was the victory of the Greek navy that wrecked the Persian fleet and kept the Persians from supplying their army that defeated the Persians. After that, the Persians had to send most of their army back home. It was also partly due to the Persians burning everything in sight rather than saving grain stores and food supplies. They probably could have stayed for a while after seizing Athens had they not burned up everything. At least that is my view of things. I am sure there are other details to consider. Sort of like bad gun handling in a movie.

Oh, I almost forgot. I finally saw 300 this week on video. That was a well made, but horrible movie. The first battle was the only one I liked. Everything else made them look like a bunch of undisciplined barbarians. Also, didn't hoplites use an overhand stroke with their spears above the shield? A lot of little things just destroyed that movie for me.
 
seems the meaning of the phrase to most, comes down to interpretation more so than absolute definition. Kinda like debating religion and politics.....

I sure whatever it truly meant to those 300 Spartans was a way of life and not just a bumper sticker on a Escalade or a t-shirt worn by some Mall Ninja. It's use has changed from a rally/battle cry and a commitment of ones existence, to a attempt to impress or fit in. Talk is cheap.....and actions always speak louder than words. Leonidas and his men's actions were an embodiment of the phrase. I doubt most that use it today can say the same.

I'm not trying to trash or put anyone down here, it's just I don't see the realistic similarities between the battle of King Leonidas' Greek Army against the Persians and some modern day gun collector claiming he's ready to die for his safe queens. Yeah, I know it's still a fight against oppression, in support of all our rights(not just the 2nd amendment) but how many of those folk are willing to go to the same extremes........and how many, if any, are physically/mentally capable of doing it.......realistically, not just idle chat on a internet forum. Are any of us truly worthy of using this statement to describe ourselves? Oh, I'm sure there's a coupla folk out there........:rolleyes:


cnorman18.......can I borrow the Nomex flamesuit? I gotta feelin' I'm gonna need it.
 
What that sentiment means and what a person is truly prepared to do are up to them to carefully consider and only they will know. On a large scale, it really doesn't matter..."molon labe" is hardly gonna show up on every mall ninja's car bumper. It may be a well known sentiment on THR...but the averager gun owner has never heard of it.

I simply see it as a more educated version of; "from my cold, dead fingers" with a bit more optimism built in. ;)
 
Do you honestly believe that the US Marines fight for a brutal, repressive, slave-holding, anti-family, anti-freedom, anti-capitalistic society?

I could dig up a good chunk of the world that thinks so.

Exact translations do not interest me. If someone wants to debate a phrase based on what it translates exactly to, instead of the general meaning behind it, it tells me they don't have a great argument against it.
 
I am with cnorman18 on this one,

One of the flags associated with the Texas Revolution featured a drawing of a cannon with the phrase, "Come And Take It.'

Rather than admitting defeat, the phrase in English has the implication, "Try it and see what happens." I like that better. I suspect most of you do, too.

Many of our early settlers were familiar with classical literature, so I would not doubt they may have been influenced by the writings of Herodotus.
 
Theme & Spirit

I believe hso has correctly captured the theme and spirit of the phrase:
I shall not surrender my arms to you. You must come and defeat me. To defeat me you must kill all of us before you can take them. This is the depth of my resolve. Consider this before you act.
I find I really cannot improve on this.

It is a succinct, unambiguous, quiet-yet-passionate expression of conviction.

Rare stuff.
 
The Spartans were not eloquent speakers. In fact, the term "laconic" is derived from Laconian, another name for the Spartans.
I'm not sure if the ancient Greek syntax suggests any outcome, but I have no probably with "You've come, now take." as a translation.
Sparta, and many of the other Greek city-states were democracies, in that they were ruled, at least indirectly, by the people. However, suffrage was very limited, and the cultural values of the day were much different from ours.
 
Since we will all eventually die - maybe not at the hands of our enemies - but somehow, eventually. So if you look at the big picture, doesn't "come and take them" fully encompass the meaning of "over my dead body"?
 
I don't care who it is, anybody who would stand 2,000 men against (possibly) 2 and a half million deserves my respect. Quite frankly, you could say the same about the Marines.

How they performed in that battle may deserve some respect. I, however, choose not to consider that in isolation. The society for which they were fighting is not one I admire nor would I care to live in one that emulates it. If you know anything about it, I suspect you would not either.
...and HELL NO you could not say the same thing about the US Marines and I think you should apologize and retract what you just said about them. Do you honestly believe that the US Marines fight for a brutal, repressive, slave-holding, anti-family, anti-freedom, anti-capitalistic society?
Yes I could. The Marines do not fight for "brutal, repressive, slave-holding, anti-family, anti-freedom, anti-capitalistic society", they practically are one. I love the Marines, don't get me wrong, and that kind of discipline is not only admirable in war, it is necessary. But they are repressive. They are authoritarian. They are anti-freedom (in their own ranks). Deal with it. It's the way things need to be done sometimes. Isn't that what the Second Amendment boils down to in the end? The world not being puppies and daisies?
 
Last I checked, however the USMC may handle discipline within their ranks, they do not fight for themselves. They fight in the defense and interests of the USA.
I confess I don't understand what you mean by this bit at all:
But they are repressive. They are authoritarian. They are anti-freedom (in their own ranks). Deal with it. It's the way things need to be done sometimes. Isn't that what the Second Amendment boils down to in the end?
 
Ah, I mean that the Second Amendment is all about things being different than the way we want them to be. We can't always be safe, so we have guns to protect us. We can't always trust our government, so we have weapons to make them think twice. The Second Amendment is a wonderful example of people dealing with things being imperfect. Ugh. I'm not articulating this well. Discipline like that that the Spartans had is necessary just like the right to bear arms. Do you think the Spartans were not fighting for hearth and home? I think they were fighting for their people just as much as the Marines do today (if not more, seeing as how their homes were directly threatened). Some of the ways things were back then may leave a bad taste in our mouths today, but that does not mean that we shouldn't honor their bravery, sacrifice and courage.
 
The Greek, and previous to that, the Achean, were constantly placed into "situations" ( for lack of a better word. The gods toyed with the people incessantly ) where they were faced with Irony, or an impossibility of victory.
The perennial "no win" situation, as it were.

Leonidas was one of 2 kings of Sparta. He inherited the throne due to death in the famuily. He was traditionally a Military man. In order for him to save Sparta from the Persian Army, he basically had to break the law and violate the Carnia. The oracle had prophesied that either the King would die, or that Sparta would burn. But they did not share this information with Leonidas. He knew nothing of the propechy. He was simply told that the Army of Sparta was to remain in Sparta, and that ther would be no war during the Carnia.

Sparta was a city without walls, unlike places like Troy, which could withstand attack for many years. Sparta relied on it's own army for defense.

Knowing that, the King theorized that if the Spartan Army had to stand against the Persian forces at the present troop strength, that they were doomed. So, he chose to take 300 of his best, and try to head them off at the pass, so to speak. Although they were nowhere near Sparta, they probably would have eventually made it there, had Leonidas not done what he did. He bloodied them badly, and along with the Naval Victory of Salamis, and Xerxes departure with half of his forces prior to the the battle of Plateaa,
that the Spartans would have met the Persians in Sparta, and probably faced devastation.

The pouint being, that in order to be a true Spartan warrior, he had to disobey the oracle and make a stand. His actions and the actions of some of the other forces there are what saved Sparta, becuase, not only did it demoralize the Persians, and give the Greeks time to organize, but it sent a message to Xerxes, that basically, the Spartans were able to kick his lame butt all over Greece, regardless of what the Medes did.

The statement he made at the opening of the battle is clear. Molon, meaning "come" and Labe, meaning "get". "Come get some!" "Bring it on!"
Any number of phrases that have been uttered by people who are ready to kick butt and take names. That's the meaning of it. Come get what you deserve. No matter how you look at it, his actions, and the actions of his fellow Spartan and Thespian brothers is what saved Greece. Most of our modern medicine, philosophy, and beasic democratic ideas came from Greece. Greece that could just as easily have been Mede. Greece, that could have been the doorway to Europe. These guy helped change history, and made history in the process. Most of us can only pray that we are so lucky.
 
I shall not surrender my arms to you. You must come and defeat me. To defeat me you must kill all of us before you can take them. This is the depth of my resolve. Consider this before you act.

hso said it well. However, his version does fit handily on a shirt or hat. Both I & the missus have Molon Labe shirts (from FBMG, no less). I wear mine to work a lot and get the occasional question about it. One of the women I explained it to, a soccer mom by every definition of the word, said to me, "The way I feel about guns is that if they make them illegal, only bad guys will have them." I smiled and told her if she ever wanted to go to the range with me, she's welcome.
 
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