On The Point of AP Rifle Ammo...

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Garandimal

Garandimal

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US Code Title 18 Chapter 44 Section 921 CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.

(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.
Click to expand...


So let's analyze this bit of US code. First I'll list what doesn't qualify as armor piercing ammunition by definition.
  1. Shotgun ammunition of any type. On the federal level, all shotgun ammunition is exempted from armor piercing regulations.
  2. Rifle ammunition which does meet the construction materials requirements listed for AP ammunition, but can not be chambered in a handgun which has been mass produced for the consumption of US citizens.
  3. Ammunition under the designations of .30-06 M2AP and 5.56x45 M855 have received specific exemptions since the Attorney General has found these two types of ammunition to have sporting purposes.
So any ammunition that meets those construction requirements and can be fired from a handgun is legally considered armor piercing. It is legal to buy and possess armor piercing ammunition, but it is illegal to sell armor piercing ammunition. That means you can have it, but nobody can sell it to you.

I guess if you want 7.62x51mm NATO AP... you have to steal it?

Think this says you can't even make it...
GR
 
Its not illegal for "individuals" to buy, sell, possess or shoot (depending on state). They cant "manufacture" it.

FFL's cant sell it. Individuals can amongst themselves.

https://regulations.atf.gov/478-37/2019-24301#478-37


§ 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.
No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:

a. The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;

b. The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or

c. The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.
 
I looked in the link provided, but couldn’t find anything about how “manufacture” is defined for the purpose of the restriction on making AP ammunition. Is this a restriction that clearly applies or has been applied to individuals making ammo for personal use, or only on the making of ammo for resale or to otherwise transfer possession?
 
I havent seen anything in writing on specifically what "manufacturing" is, but it seems that most of that in the definitions applies to the bullet itself, and not the ammunition specifically.

Ive talked to a couple of people who claim that its the bullet that's being referred to, and since its already "manufactured" and you didn't make it, its perfectly legal to "load" with it. Cant seem to pin it down in writing with the ATF, might be an interesting argument if it comes up though.

But you know how that can go too. "Whats the definition of "is"? :)
 
AK103K said:
I havent seen anything in writing on specifically what "manufacturing" is, but it seems that most of that in the definitions applies to the bullet itself, and not the ammunition specifically.

Ive talked to a couple of people who claim that its the bullet that's being referred to, and since its already "manufactured" and you didn't make it, its perfectly legal to "load" with it. Cant seem to pin it down in writing with the ATF, might be an interesting argument if it comes up though.

But you know how that can go too. "Whats the definition of "is"? :)
Click to expand...

Read and address the OP.

It has specifications both in the provided quote and following linked ATF.pdf.




GR
 
The problem is, if you pushed it, you would get to pay your lawyer to explain all that stuff in court while the prosecution showed pictures of holes in bulletproof vests.

The only practical application of AP that I ever saw was some of that exempted M2 in my friend the deputy's rifle. There was a tip of a large dope shipment coming in by boat. He was the "French roadblock*." That is, he was back up the road a ways with a rifle full of AP. If the dope runners blew past the deputies at the landing, he would rearrange their engine block with no further discussion. The shipment did not arrive on schedule so we don't know how that setup would have worked.

*Jan Stevenson described a French roadblock as a gendarme with a clipboard. If you didn't stop, there would be an automatic rifle or LMG a little way down the road.
 
Garandimal said:
Read and address the OP.

It has specifications both in the provided quote and following linked ATF.pdf.




GR
Click to expand...
No need to. Your reading it wrong too. ;)

§ 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.
No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:
Click to expand...

Doesnt say a "person" cant buy, sell, trade, possess, or shoot, simply that they cant manufacture or import. The restriction on selling is on the manufacturer and/or importer. Says so right in the cite from the ATF.

The manufacture part is still a bit fuzzy too.
 
Just to make it clearer for you too, and right from the document, you cited at the bottom of your first post.....

Provisions of Public Law 99-408 provide that: 1. No person may manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition and no manufacturer or importer may sell or deliver such ammunition except:
Click to expand...

Same thing and it hasn't changed (your cite is a bit dated)

as far as the manufacturing thing.....

your cite again....

The Act amends chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code to define the term armor piercing ammunition as "a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.
Click to expand...
That says the "projectile" is the armor piercing ammunition, not the loaded round.

If you arent "manufacturing" the "projectile", then it sounds to me, that loading an already manufactured projectile, is perfectly legal.
 
AK103K said:
...That says the "projectile" is the armor piercing ammunition, not the loaded round.

If you arent "manufacturing" the "projectile", then it sounds to me, that loading an already manufactured projectile, is perfectly legal.
Click to expand...

From the OP quote:

(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.




GR
 
Not that it confirms anything but I've watched numerous videos on YouTube on the big gun channels were they have used very expensive .50bmg rounds that were real armor piercing, explosive, incendiary and some combination of. One would think if millions of views if the rounds were illegal the ATF would say something.
 
Garandimal said:
From the OP quote:

(17)(A) The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.




GR
Click to expand...
At best, its conflicting and gives you something to argue about if it becomes an issue.

Their cite does "specifically" call armor-piercing ammunition "a projectile", not a loaded case. So which definition is right?

No matter what, I can still buy, sell, possess, and shoot any I find! :p
 
AK103K said:
At best, its conflicting and gives you something to argue about if it becomes an issue.

Their cite does "specifically" call armor-piercing ammunition "a projectile", not a loaded case. So which definition is right?

No matter what, I can still buy, sell, possess, and shoot any I find! :p
Click to expand...

Got mine from the CMP.

​


$0.60/pop.

'Merica!




GR
 
We had a lot of it over the years and in a number of calibers. Some of it in clips, strippers, and belts. Its not really all that novel.

My buddy had 10 cases of the Chinese 7.62x39 steel core stuff that they classified as AP. When it got up to over $1+ a round (he paid $100/1200 case, do the math :)) during the last ammo debacle, he asked another buddy of ours who has a gun shop if he could sell some on consignment and was told no, being he was an FFL holder, he couldn't sell it.

Just from a couple of people in the shop at the time, overhearing the conversation, he ended up selling what he had in the truck out in the parking lot, and the rest later on from word of mouth.

If you want it, its out there if you look, and you can still buy it. :)
 
They used that AP rule to ban further import of cheap 7n6 5.45 ammo, just on the rumor of a 5.45 AK pistol which “might” be imported.

My father, a WWII vet who fought in France and Germany, said he only loaded his Garand with AP. He said that if a German was behind a tree, he would shoot right through it. He also said 30.06 AP did a fine job demolishing stone or brick walls.

when I was young, a dealer at the gun show had cloth MG belts of Canadian surplus .06 AP. It was cheap, and I shot some through a sporterized Springfield 03-A3 I inherited. That rifle has the two groove rifling, and it liked the Canadian AP very much, shooting 1.5” groups at 100yds with open sights.
 
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The first National Matches after the war, before they had time to set up to make NM ammo, they issued "selected lots" of AP because it was more accurate than wartime ball.
On the other hand, Phil Sharpe was the only one I ever read to say that AP was hard on the barrel; everybody else says the jacket is all the bore sees.
 
So according to the law as written, you could make and sell bullets with a natural (non depleted) uranium core and it'd be totally legal.

I can't foresee a possibility that any other federal agencies would have a problem with that... ;)
 
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